XML FeedsSome of what goes on behind the scenes
By TB on Apr 27, 2010 | In Viper's Tangled Web | 31 feedbacks »
So as promised, it is time to take my massive email collection ( I have every email since I started in scenario paintball) and start posting up the truth about how Kerry Rosenberry runs his business. In this instance, the talk is about Fort Knox paintball and Team WOW and their attempt to grow the game. Millslane was helping run the game and reached out to Viper to get permission to use his rule set or elements of it.
Viper took the opportunity to preach from on high, why no one else but him should be in business. Take a read of the emails below and you will see the amount of 'preachiness' that he loves to exude. On top of that is the email to me to step in and mediate but not to let people know I was doing it on his behalf.
I am sure that some will read it and see it for what it is, and some won't. But in the end, this is the kind of backdoor manipulation he does and the politics he plays. Pitting one pawn against another in the hopes that he doesn't lose money. Funny how in the past few months, I was the reason that he lost value in Texas, but reading this email he places that blame squarely on other people. To top it off, some of the very people he is in bed with now and braying about how happy he is to see them again. And those people just have never learned to say I would rather not play than play your games. Well they used to say that, guess he got some more backdoor politics going.
This is just the tip of the Iceberg, I plan on releasing a whole lot more emails that went on between me and Kerry and follow through with the promise, of I know where the fucking bodies are buried. Time to unearth a few of these skeletons and get them talking and hanging out with people. In the end some people will be 'outed' but isn't the truth what you people claim you want to know?
Click here to continue reading including some great emails.
Follow up:
Someone should email WOW and ask them how these panned out for them, working with Viper and Joe Stayback at Sherwood. I can tell you from what I have heard, not too damn good.
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 10:45:51 -0500
From: viper@viperpaintball.com
To: scenariotb@hotmail.com
Subject: Here we go again
Do you have any pull with "Millslane"?
They are the latest in the "we want to go into competition with you because we want to help" crowd. And what they don't understand as you do is that this doesn't help anyone but them. Right now, I am still struggling to get the players in that area to understand how to play real scenario paintball after the whole MXS mess. I don't want to make this team or their supporters angry, so I need you to talk to them.
Because some people never get it and they think that they have the answers and they really have no understanding about how the business works.
Here is our correspondence so far. Please don't quote any of it if you should choose to contact him. And make sure no one else knows that you and I have talked about this. I simply know that you understand the dynamics of how these people always have the best intentions, and it just never works out like they planned. It ends up costing me money and players.
From: Millslane
To: Viper
Posted: Aug 19, 2008 - 05:24 PM
Subject: Pretty please Quote message
Viper, I wanted to ask if you would grant Team WOW permission to use certain elements of your Scenario Rules in our own small, team
produced mini scenarios.
Of course, we would never attempt to plan anything on fields or dates where and when you produce events (because we will be there with you Smile)
We are desiring to being scenario games to smaller fields locally in an attempt to make the pool of scenario players larger. Since they all won't come to you or Sherwood or us, we would like to start to bring it to them and then hopefully hook them on it so they will come play larger events with us.
We are not desiring to copy your rules word for word as we are working on developing a format with some other twists that we think will be different, but the use of the MOS's and Mission types would be needed since the flow of the game will still be based around Scenario style play.
Joey "Millslane" Yonke
Team WOW
_________________________________________________________________________
From: Viper
To: Millslane
Posted: Aug 19, 2008 - 06:02 PM
Subject: Re: Pretty please
Well, since I feel that we know each other I will be frank with you
I have heard the same thing more times in the last decade than I can even keep count of. Every time the same situation presents itself, and players/teams think that they have the answer.
The situation: Local players aren't traveling to games
The perceived cause: They aren't familiar with the concept
The perceived solution: Bring games to them
The theoretical goal: Once they experience the small, local events they will want to come to larger ones.
The actual end result every time: The new players enjoy it, but very few actually start traveling to the larger events. And, even worse, some of the players nearer to these local events cease traveling and choose the local ones for reasons of cost and Scheduling because it takes less gas to get there, and they don't have to take off of work on Friday.
Later I get emails from a couple of these teams assuring me that they have not ceased coming because of me. It's simply due to a vote by the team and the need to cut expenses. They apologize and assure me that they will still make a point of coming to one of the large events each year. However, they never seem to get it back together for road trips, and I never see them again.
Furthermore local players, given a choice between spending $300 for a weekend at my event 100 miles away, or spending $100 for a lesser one closer to home, opt for the closer, cheaper ones, finding that they are satisfied with less game for less money and effort.
As I said, and I assure you that this is true, and based upon a decade of seeing it over and over. I have never (read that as not once, not ever) seen the desired result, or anything that positively effected me. I have always (read as every time) seen a tangible negative effect, or none at all that I could accurately measure. I have always either lost players, or seen no gain in attendance based on introduction of scenario to a distant area.
Now, I do not own scenario paintball or have any right to a monopoly on it. What you do is your own business, and I have no right to try and control your actions.
However, know this; based upon my experience in this situation I will lose money and players due to your actions if you proceed, regardless of your intentions.
I have absolutely zero doubt that you believe that you will create new players and help grow my events and others in the area. However, the fact is that you will not. I know that sounds negative, and it?s hard to believe that I could make such a statement as if it were fact. However, I have seen it done in every way possible, at many different distances, in all directions, and by many different players/teams?all with the same intentions and theory.
The short list:
Gunfighter Games
Ex customer east of Houston.
I lost the Lost Boys and Technostorm. Easily 45 ? 50 players. Gained zero new ones.
Wiz Bang Productions
The Brotherhood from DFW (north of Houston)
I lost a lot of DFW area players to the closer, cheaper events
Pipe Creek Paintball
RPM from San Antonio
I lost ALL of my San Antonio area players
Rocky?s Rabid Racoons
SW of Houston
Lost them and two other teams. Although their goal was ?to help build my events? they never came back.
OPForce Productions
Houston
Lost the Rangers and other teams. This also allowed more of MXS to cement their way into Houston because of people's associations with PB USA and other things. These people quit coming to my games and cost me my field in Houston.
I could go on?but it?s all the same?
So there is the truth in a nutshell, based on real experience with multiple players/teams from many areas and distances, from an hour to four hours in all directions from Houston (when I was based there) all with the same result. They wanted to help, but it only ended up sabotaging me. What?s worse is none of them are around anymore except Gunfighter. The rest siphoned off players, never created any new ones for me, and cost me money in the end.
With all of the events going on the calendar is already crowded. If you want to help grow the events find new teams and talk to Joe and I about working some discounts for their first event. We are both always open to INVESTING in future players and teams. But giving them more, cheaper options, and crowding and already overcrowded recreational paintball calendar is not the answer?I can tell you that with full confidence.
I hope you understand, and know that I am not trying to monopolize things or control you. I took the time to compose this (overly
verbose) message in an effort to try and help you understand my outlook and see that what is meant to help will actually cost me in
the end and pull players away, not bring them in.
_________________
Kerry "Viper" Rosenberry
Event Director: Viper Paintball
___________________________________________________________________________
From: Millslane
To: Viper
Posted: Aug 19, 2008 - 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: Pretty please Quote message
Well, I'll honestly say that I was not expecting that as a response, but you knew that already. Smile
Thank you for your insight, I assure that we will be thinking a little more about this and the effects of it. I appreciate you honesty.
That's something that is surely missed these days.
__________________________________________________________________________
From: Viper
To: Millslane
Posted: Aug 19, 2008 - 11:33 PM
Subject: Re: Pretty please
And I appreciate you considering the weight of what I've told you. I was being quite literal when I said that it has NEVER helped me, and nearly always hurt my events and the others in the area.
This is a severely oversaturated market. I am working hard to undo the damage done by others in the area, and trying to get CPX and Sherwood to be more cooperative. After I accomplish that I will work on Realms of Ruin. Once two of the three major fields in the area are working together the third must either get with the program or get trampled under foot. CPX is backing off to two major recreational events in an effort to desaturate the area a bit. Adding more events would undermine the gains made here.
If you want to talk more on the phone I'm always available to everyone. Feel free to call anytime.
_________________
Kerry "Viper" Rosenberry
Event Director: Viper Paintball
________________________________________________________________________
From: Millslane
To: Viper
Posted: Aug 20, 2008 - 07:26 AM
Subject: Re: Pretty please Quote message
Thank you for the insight once again. Our intentions was never to put on any large scale or even multiple events per year. Most likely just one some time in the late summer/fall when you typically did not have a event planned at Sherwood. But if you are working with CPX and RoR now as well, that likely seems that you could have events at all times of the season now up here.
We certainly don't want to take away from you.
________________________________________________________________________
From: Viper
To: Millslane
Posted: Aug 20, 2008 - 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: Pretty please
Well, the old saying goes "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
These situations usually have the same common denominators. Someone looks at scenario directing, thinks it looks fun, and wants to try their hand at it. The further motivate themselves by theorizing that they will be helping.
But if you break it down to the simplest components going into competition is going into competition no matter how you sugar coat it. If I open a burger joint, and you open a burger joint, you can claim that you are "trying to create more burger eaters" but, in the end, it's still one more burger joint.
If I hadn't seen this so many times, with the same result, there would be room for theories and possibilities. However, sadly, there isn't.
If you really want to help the games grow then keep plugging away at the locals in your area and talk to Joe and I about discounts for first-timers. Anything else is going to be counterproductive.
_________________
Kerry "Viper" Rosenberry
Event Director: Viper Paintball
And how can Texas and the Midwest be oversaturated? I wonder how many emails have gone out to teams in the Northeast about over-saturation? I can guarantee you that he doesn't like the fact that EMR is having more games then his one per year. And while he is commanding the June game, it is so people see him and know him as a player and come back to play his game a few months later. See, that's just Kerry's MO, he thinks everyone else is stupid. But that has been proved with other emails from other people already here.
Wait until next time!
31 comments
For the record, this emails were not doctored in any way by TB.
WOW has never attempted to run anything as a team as we originally planned.
WI paintball still sucks with a bunch of wanna be scenario ballers who still need to learn what a good game is...er...used to be like.
And the reason WOW is only playing one event at Sherwood (and already played it) has absolutely nothing to do with this. Actually, we didn't even remember this until now.
First, I was aware of the emails back when they first happened. Our "team" ended up not putting on any events, not because of Viper's reasons but because of the time and effort involved in putting a good game together. It's hard enough for most of us to find time to play the game let alone produce one.
Second, in our (Team WOW's) attempts to grow the sport of scenario paintball and Vipers events, we've come up with a host of ideas (looks like TB may already have them, lol). Ideas which I know would have increased revenue. Ideas which Viper and I were unable to agree upon.
I understood Vipers view as to the why's but I gues I look at things differently.
Team WOW believes in recruiting, training, and helping newer teams.
We believe in building this sport through helping others... whether that be promoters, teams, or players.
We advance this great sport through giving into it, and we've proven our success.
On several occasions, I've gone as far as sending my entire playbook for a paticular scenario to the opposite commander in order to give them a fighting chance. In order to make the game better.
The one thing I've learned in buisness is to take care of those who take care of you. Perks, incentives, jestures of kindness now and than go a long way to tangibly say "Thank you!" This is one thing I find missing quite often in our sport.
Thespis, although he only puts on one game a year, is an excellent example of an individual who knows buisness, which is the main reason we come back every year and keep recruiting for his game.
I understand there are alot of naive individuals out there in our sport. Those with noble ideas but no working knowledge. I also realize there are those who are out for nothing but themselves. But when a team or player proves they can recruit, build the sport, or bring added value to the game... well, they should be considered a valuable asset, not a threat. The fact that TB has these emails tells me that Viper didn't trust us, that he felt we needed to be brought "in-line".
Does this make me angry. No... just disappointed. I loved playing Vipers games (at least the old format which was more challanging). I would still go to his games if some things were to change. I'm ok with the fact that he believes we don't understand, or that he feels the need to use others to influence us. You see, Team WOW is there to play a game and have some fun. We are there to meet new players and help them have fun. We are there to help the promoters make money so we can all have more fun... that's buisness!
I will end with this...
Viper, I will publicly state that I hope all of this works out for you and we are working together again in the future.
TB, you and I have had our disagreements also, but I've appreciated your honesty and straightforwardness.
In truth though, this most likely won't work out well because what's needed is some public apologies and some forgiveness. Two things that don't come easy to most.
"T"
I would just like to point out that I (by myself) was producing games before these emails transpired. I continue to produce solo games at the field mentioned above. However the plan for this team produced event was not ment for Fort Knox, but a field that fell through in Wisconsin.
In the beginning I wasn't taken seriously, however with a few logical business views and the refusal to play into the cut throat politics that plague paintball, I firmly believe in my statement "More paintball for less." And I won't shove numbers down peoples throats, I think my event attendance speaks for itself.
I do find it odd however that coincidentally the same year all of these events takes place, Team WOW is suddenly thrown into the politics, rumors are started, and people have began to try to break us with the drama that plagues their lives and paintball careers. We refuse to stoop to such levels and I hope you realize that we will only come out stronger and better than we were before.
It is also becoming rellevant that several rumors are amuck as to why team WOW has pulled out of most all Viper events in 2010. For those interested in the truth and not what they heard you can stay tuned to the Team WOW forums for a team approved press release reguarding the issues that made us come to this decision. If anyone has further questions or concerns please contact one of us for an accurate and truthful answer.
Thank you goes out to TB for bringing to light the true character of a person I once had respect for.
www.pbteamwow.com
Politics are the problem with scenario paintball. If you don't walk a certain way or see things the way certain people think you should, well then your outcast and all the BS starts. I am fortunate to be on a team that not only has mad skills on the field but also has the maturity and honor to not get sucked in the void that is rotting the game.
My wife and I have had our ride on the political roller coaster, I thank all the people who have voiced their support and thank my teammates for helping keep the drama in check. I'm a huge believer of you reap what you sow.
Make it fun, make it competitive just drop the fricking drama and let's play!
All this other stuff sounds like ex-girlfriend shit, to be blunt...interesting to the effected parties, but boring to those with no dog in the race. I don't want to interrupt a good cry, but can you shoot me an email when you get over this phase and go off on all the wannabes?
Thanks!
But which wannabes should I go off on? There are a ton of them. ;)
I was at a big game in Texas recently, and when a good player and locally known dude asked all us vets to stand up for a "thank you" clap...I was stunned that out of almost 300 players, only a small handful of us were prior service, despite a TON on ACU/MARPAT/BDU/Whatever in the crowd. I re-read my previous post, sorry to sound like a dick, and I'll stop derailing.
And Mil-Sim is the buzzword these days to be sure. Besides I know a few vets who don't attend events in Texas any more. People can say what they want, but a little bit of appreciation would be a little more than some dude standing up.
So should he have gotten the same wrath from those that had done scenario before him? Should we shut scenario paintball off to everyone who came along after Viper?? Was he 'the chosen one' and any attempts since then should be deemed futile and 'counter productive'. I think not.... This is America, I know this, because MY MONEY SAYS IT ON THERE. And thats one of only two ways we speak the loudest as Americans.... With our VOTE, and with our MONEY! If Vipers games truly are as great and worthy as he and others believe, then he will have very little concern for an upstart producer or a team that decides to put on games because, ultimately the player will go to what fulfills them. How in the hell is healthy competition 'counter productive'? Its what drives products to be better, inspires new ideas, and quite frankly weeds out the weak!
I don't have a dog in this fight, I hardly know T.B. and I know Viper even less. I dont have anything against either of them, and T.B. has only pissed me off once (which is pretty good compared to most...lol) but, the mentality displayed in these emails speaks volumes on the driving motivation to gain one of my abilties to speak.... Well, I already voted, and there is no elections coming up for a bit, so it must be my MONEY!
I have played 3 of Vipers games and they were pretty good, but I would be against anyone trying to limit my options and my ability to choose the best fit for me. Sometimes I prefer a cheaper option with less travel and expect less production, and sometimes I want everything and will spend more and travel to get it.
Someone needs to relieve the gatekeeper and find out if he was actually appointed to that position to start with!!!
Then again I'm taking the fact I know he used players to rope in other players to his ideas for granted because I've been one of them. As for his "bad" side tounge lashings/Your my enemy now!!! I had one of those too (stupid pbn pm limits). He's paranoid as shit and will take a disagreement as a throwing down of the gauntlet sometimes. Or at least comes across that way.
After all the shit I got, and still have gotten, over the first VIP game getting shut down by cali being gay he honestly thought I was trying to ruin his secound one when I was going after the professor and his group when they disinvited me. He was rather abrasive about it. I understood and still understand why, it's a shitty business. It's great if everything works well, running the game itself doesn't seem immensely difficult to me, running the players is.
Look at the result of this decision for example.
The backdoor dealing, and it does not have to be this way. Other promoters don't do it and they work just fine. All the promoters in Texas doing business his way is what has killed Texas Scenario. He has led the way with his lets be buds in public but I will crucify you in private to other people and not even you is his business model. And he wonders where MXS got it or maybe he learned it from them.
First VIP was in FL not Cali. And the politics were a lot more of his choosing than not. And I got used for that one to.......but the SE could care less about Viper anymore so posting that really provided very little value.
I find it interesting that OpForce was being blamed for him "losing" HIS field in Houston. I thought it was all the evil doings of Patrick alone stealing his field. As far as the Rangers and other teams not playing his events because of it. I know that's not totally true in regards to the Rangers. Rick and Bobby actually traveled to several of his events including MOUT during the time he wasn't producing any events in Houston.
"And the politics were a lot more of his choosing than not"
To me that's more intresting than this story. I wasn't discounting it, I just thought it wasn't all that suprising.
"
Dude, they are on opposite sides of the country....are you serious? LOL
you expect us to get paintball right?
by the way --- the best games in the world are and have been done by this florida guy --- wayne Dollack
he's older now but his games are still the best going !!!!!
pfft he just stole everything he does from Viper
MXS started as a friend and former business partner of Viper, Packman, asking permission to form his own company with the understanding that he would A) Stay out of Texas, or B) schedule his events so that they would not compete with Vipers events. We all know how that worked out. He also helped RPM start scenarios in San Antonio. Nick generaled against TB? and quit coming to the games and he lost 40 - 50 players.
The problem with mil-sim in paintball is how most people view it. Stop dressing up, and get yourself some fucking capability. 'Net-centric is the future, embrace it.
2) Games are games. It doesn't matter who puts it on. It will be good, or it will be bad. The same producer can put on some good ones, and some bad ones. It happens.
My question is, why the hell are scenario players still playing the exact same shit they played 10+ years ago? That's like still being happy to play Pong when Xbox360 is available.
Can anybody name another industry that can get away with this?
Congress.
Nick generaled against TB?
Nope. Nick generaled against me.
Gunfighter Games
Only site I could actually find from this list that puts on what appear to be small scenario games.
Wiz Bang Productions
When's the last time Wiz put on a game? Last I talked to him was at the Outlaw Crew's field near Centerville. He told me he only turned up because I was rumored to be appearing. The Brotherhood quit to play Evercrack.
Pipe Creek Paintball
Try googling them and seeing what you get. I found a phone number, no site, no forum, no adverts.
Rocky?s Rabid Racoons
What field, what games? I don't see adverts anywhere.
OPForce Productions
Hasn't done a game in how long? May or may not be back with the rebirth of TXR.
MXS
Well all know what happened here.
So if most of these companies no longer exist... where are all the players at?
How it used to be, just a few promoters and a few games, does anyone think that was better for the industry as a whole? Sure you get higher quality games with higher quality players but for the market demgraphic that is scenario paintball that sucks.
More games will equal more players to a point. Your quality of players will drop, the average quality of games will drop, and apparently milsim will become cool again. What you think of this all depends on what you want scenario to be.
Showing the cows how to eat the cabbage? I don't get your southern euphanisms.
"Why can't you see that? It is the matter of him not doing what he claims he does."
I can see it TB, I'm just suprised everyone else didn't. It's par for the course when your a national promoter. I honestly thought everyone knew he was using sponsered player or team X to push agenda Y without saying they where pushing it for him.
Now if he did use that to split up thunderstruck or hellbent that's a whole diffrent can of worms. I honestly thought the thunderstruck thing was Sean being Sean and Viper picked the wrong side. I can tell you honestly CPX LL was all Sean. I still don't get why.
Hellbent I never develed into because I have friends on both side of that. If he's using his influence to do that sorta thing it's a hell of a lot diffrent then him using it to stop people from starting up games or piss and moan about something that hurts him. At least to me.
There'd have to be some good proof for me to believe it though. Because that's really dicked up if it's true. I honestly have a hard time imagining Viper taking that leap.
Shit you could e-mail it to me without me saying anything about it if that suits you. Just use my real one not the one I put in the thing here.
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