The Wild World of TB!

This whole situation gets my blood boiling and here's why:

1st - I've been playing Viper games for 4 years and using the other teams players card to get into their base has always been "allowed".

2nd - At LL3 I was told that ESP had found one of our opponents cards and went to them and got taped up. To which my reply was, "Well, they shouldn't have lost it." I saw nothing wrong with it since that was always allowed at previous events.

3rd - Mike from pbTech was upset because he felt that ESP had cheated (something I totally understand especially if Mike didn't understand the rules), so he asked Viper. Viper told Mike that ESP did indeed cheat, which got Mike rather upset (something I again totally understand). I would be upset too. Now we have this huge fallout.

4th - Viper has stated on his site: Quote; "Understand that I am not calling anyone a criminal or a cheater, but simply making an attempt to avoid such misunderstandings in the future."

The last time I checked, if someone knowingly violates the rules than he's a cheater. He has stated that ESP violated (misunderstood) the rules.

SO... that makes them CHEATERS!

Which means I violated the rules, SO... I'm a CHEATER!

Which means all those teams who have been "allowed" to do this all those years... are CHEATERS!

If Viper would have just said that I allowed this for years and from now on it won't be allowed... I could have dealt with it. BUT to throw ESP under the bus and paint them as a cheating team for following the rules as we've all understood them. UNACCEPTABLE!

I would have posted this in Vipers forum but he locked the thread. Contact me in private was his response.

Well ESP's reputation is being drug through the mud in public. It's not fair to them to have their name drug through the dirt in public, and than try to keep everything that may shed light on the "why's" in the dark.

TB (you bad person), thanks for posting this.

"T"

And according to some, the lack of public defense by ESP and others has been supplemented with "Well you don't want to be like TB and Thunderstruck, so you should handle this all in private and let me do what I need to do to make it all go away".

There are a lot of problems with this, even if Mike recanted and agreed that the people should not be held accountable to rules made after the event, the simple fact that hundreds of people who don't know ESP now associate that name with cheating and there are threads upon threads about it. IN which there is very little defense (Other than your guys T and a few ESP before they were locked down) but the threads aren't gone, just locked. That means that they will be there for all time, searchable and visible for anyone who may or may not know who ESP is and what they think of them.

Personally, Ratsnake has once again lost his way, this is history repeating itself. This is how HE destroyed the scenario scene in Texas. And since he goes after scenario producers in the background and behind the scenes, people in the midwest will soon have no places 'worthy' (his words) to play and they will have to play his games no matter what. And that is the goal, I hate to say it but with me gone, he has no counter-balance, as there are very few with the ability to stand up and debate with him and not shrink down when he tries to throw his weight around.

But as I have said, I have it easy now, I don't have to worry about his games and how they affect me or my team. As for how they affect other people, I would again tell them, look at how he dealt with me and my team. And take out the personal feelings you have for either, as I told a scenario promoter a few days ago when they called me, take out the names and put the situation in perspective from just the standpoint of faceless/nameless people and tell me how you would feel about how someone acted or treated someone. And then you will realize that if they do that to a person (regardless of who they were) then you will know how they feel about you and how they will treat you.

My hope is that like before, a promoter will decide to come back into the area and put on some games with integrity that me and my team can attend. Payroll looks like he is headed that way, but does he REALLY want to be a promoter?

I have been Lurking around this site for awhile and agree with many posts on here.

You guys have said exactly what I was thinking and I cant put it in better words.

1st - I've been playing Viper games for 4 years and using the other teams players card to get into their base has always been "allowed".

2nd - At LL3 I was told that ESP had found one of our opponents cards and went to them and got taped up. To which my reply was, "Well, they shouldn't have lost it." I saw nothing wrong with it since that was always allowed at previous events.


I totally agree that this was allowed at Vipers games in the past as I also have attended Vipers games in past years and this was allowed. I just personally think this was the wrong game to do it at with all the newer players that were attending. Just my two cents.

I also do not want the paintball world to label ESP as a cheat as they have always been stand up ballers and my team have always enjoyed playing with them as we play in the grey area very often. I just think sometimes we make bad judgemnts and I think this game was played more like a Big Game. I also believe that Viper should have stated that yes at my other games in the past we were able to take player cards but do to the size and the players attending this game we will not allow that at this game.

It is very hard to stop doing something if you have always done it in the past without someone telling you otherwise.

Just my two cents.

Thanks for the support. Anyone who knows me understands my feelings towards cheating and how valuable my reputation and my team's reputation is.

And being labled "cheaters" on a national forum and then not being able to defend one's self is very frustrating!

Thanks,

Eric Swift
Team ESP

Posting from my iphone as someone completely trashedmy computer down to where I am not able to do anything on it, if they think this will hold me down they are wrong. Payroll Productions will only get stronger and better in these trying times and let it be known we are sitting at 200 pre regs for our one day event on july 10th. Once im up and running again things will come to light quickly that I am around to stay and refuse to lead to shady antics for a quick buck!

Payroll Team On Target most definately would like to play one of your games, please let me know what is in the works.

"talk in private" or "let's not start any drama" is always the path taken by the dude doing something scetchy. Everyone being fine with that up until now has opened the door to something like this happening.

10-shot, I'm not sure it's a question of "everyone being fine with that up until now". Compare it to modern politics. It's the way it has always been, but people have never liked it. The only significant difference over time is the introduction of the Internet, and the ability for dispersed people to rapidly have conversations.

The Internet is the death of backroom politics.

I am extremely new to paintball, and when I commanded my 1st game I made sure that the person taping players physically wrote player numbers on player cards as well as names. Told everyone that if they chose to not wear tape we would shoot first & ask questions afterward. I enforced that strongly and never once was a known player allowed close to the base without being checked & that people who got close were either barrel tagged or shot period. Even thow the base was hit a couple of times we spoiled several attemps to get in.

Paintball is loosing its requirement to use their brains and protect themselves. No wonder there's so much bs & drama going on, you don't need to use your brain cuz if ya do, you're called a cheater.....

My 10 cents.....

I find it amusing that it is mentioned that "gaining access to the enemies base using one of their own ID cards requires no skill whatsoever..."

Sure, anyone can pick up an ID card from the other team and waltz on in to base. But it takes skill to *stay* there undetected.

I actually thought this was the funniest part "Without it there would be dozens of players running around using lost IDs to create havoc, and we would simply have to issue more ID cards to allow the players who lost theirs to play."

Since this had been going on for oh.. 10+ years, and at no game has there ever been dozens of lost cards creating havoc at any event I've ever played.

Lets be real here. 1 person did something that's been accepted, and commended, since scenario play started. Another person bitched about it. Therefore, it's cheating and can never be done again.

I'm just not sure if it's funny or sad.

My issue is being called a cheater by someone who has done far worse and has even allowed things like this to go on at his games or done it at other games himself. And the Jammer, Honorary Jersey debacle he pulled, he is a low down cocksucker.

This is an attempt to get the big game people there, the problem, he shit on his base and people who have played his games for fucking years.

And then wants to blame them.

Ding! Bring out your dead!
Ding! Bring out your dead!

Time to dust off that turntable Mr. DJ

GSRP? Here are the little mans rules posted by him on his web site.

“Quote from viper”

Viper Scenario Rules 6.5 online

Do NOT lose your colored I.D. card. Write your badge number on it! It is the only way you will be able to get into your base. If it falls into enemy hands it will give them free admission to your base. For this reason your I.D. card WILL NOT be replaced by game management under ANY circumstances.

Then later he come back and states this:

Understand that I am not calling anyone a criminal or a cheater, but simply making an attempt to avoid such misunderstandings in the future. The key point is this: When what others tell you conflicts with what the rules state, go by what the rules state. If you have questions, or feel that what the rules say is unclear, ask for clarification

End viper’s Quote”

From what a true man or women would read of vipers rules: If you can acquire an ID from the opponent’s side. Then you are legal within viper’s rules.

Viper posted his rules, and then wants to tap dance around them just too black ball an honorary team. I now know why I never played his games as a player, I’m glad I listened to the warnings of TB.

I've played with ESP. They Don't Cheat.

This whole situation is out of control. And forums being locked, (no matter what they think) really looks bad for a producer.

And changing a rule (or editing it as the phase said) to keep yourself from looking Bad. Leaves a bad taste in a lot of players mouths.

An ID is a game prop, just like money is a game prop, or for that matter any other game issued or game created item. It's in play. It has always been my understanding, and one that has been drummed into my head by TB and others that played the format, that a ID was not to be lost, as it could be used to obtain armband tape from the other team. The only way to legally obtain tape for the other side was for them to tape you and that having an ID would help you along in that task. It was never a gray area as far as I am concerned.

It is ridiculous that ESP has been thrown under the bus on this issue. As someone who at one time was part of a team very well known for running base security, it was something we drilled into the heads of our players, your ID is part of your ticket to the base, don't lose your ticket or give someone who isn't supposed to have it a ticket that could hurt us.
This is what happens when you ask people to take their brains out of their asses and use it for what it was intended for. They protest having to use the mother fucker, and instead beg to be led by their noses. Fucking sad.

Indy: I meant in terms of online forums that phrase had been getting more prevalent/respected. If I wasn't on an iPod in Maui I'd look up links for you. Later of course I'll simply contrive up another excuse.

Shawdog: I don't think it's your average scenario player who Is so lame to cry quite this loud. Cry? Absolutly, sometimes even in concintraitions loud enough to affect this sort of change at a singular weak feild.

Now I know there isn't a hell of a lot of respect for viper here, but even with this most unfortunate disicion, I think we all still respect him enough for this change to hold a magnitude of sorts for us to go "WTF" in unison. So it had to be, minimally, a large group of players with influence.

As I've said before this is what happens when you have a large number of ameture tourny players . They win (there side wanted it more for sure) and still make complete asses of themselves after the fact. The rule change personally shocks me less than viper being stupid enough to be led by the failed demographic of the sport.

Capturing ID credentials and using them against the other team has been a part of scenario play since i began playing and long before then.
The problem is Mike is a douchebag idiot who holds the leash on the ghetto of paintball i call techpb.com, and he has a bully pulpit to spout off about shit he doesn't understand. This is typical of your average lowest common denominator player. I don't understand it, I don't want to use my brain to understand it, so it must be wrong, now change to please me.

I don't like this. I don't like catering to the lowest common denominator. I understand that smart business is to not turn away dummies money, but you don't chase off your base by lowering the bar.
Don't penalize the people who get it. Raise the bar, and force the LCD to come up to level.

I hope you know we both agree on all that shawdog.

But here is the thing that you guys are missing. You might want to re-read Viper's posts. He says that he isn't changing this for Mike/Tech PB.

What he has said is that WE all have known that the rule was to turn it in and we all knowingly cheated. What you permit, you promote and according to him NO ONE ever told him in 13 years that this was being done. And according to him they did not tell him because they knew it was wrong.

That is what people should be most pissed at. Not the rule change (that is economic) but the fact that he called every veteran player of Viper games a cheater.

Nah, I didn't miss it. I don't believe it. Thats being disingenuous on his part. The motivation as far as I can see for his "clarification" revolves around the play for dummy money.
He really honestly doesn't believe up until just now that people were doing it? And now we are supposed to believe that anybody who did have been cheating all along? I was born at night but it wasn't last night.
If he honestly believed this was cheating, it would have been addressed before now in his rules more directly.

But the thing is that he doesn't believe it, but that didn't stop him from calling HIS players cheaters. Not TB, TB ain't been at his games for over a year, but people who have been playing his games since he started.

Let me pull some quotes, shall I?

I cannot help but feel that is because they know where I stand on it, and that I would take issue with their doing so.

As I stated, there is a reason that no one ever came to me and talked about doing it on the field. It is because they knew what the rules were saying, but they were ready to use things other than the rules as a defense if I said something about it.

I'm sorry if player feel I am taking something away from them. The truth is that I am clarifying a rule that people have chosen to justify breaking.

So before you accuse me of caving to players' whining, would anyone care to think about why no one ever posts about doing it after a game? I can tell you...because they knew they were skirting the rules because they felt that they had a defense by saying that things other than the rules implied otherwise.

As stated, I haven't taken anything away other than an excuse players have, apparently, been using as a defense for totally disregarding something stated in the rules.

Players simply managed to take my warnings to players and use them as justification to break the rule.

That was in the rules, in black and white, and seemingly clear.

Luckily only a few have wanted to use the defenses available to justify "adapting" the rules.

And then he comes back to compare finding a player card to unauthorized use of an ATM card.

Now he does try to "say" that he isn't accusing people of cheating or bring criminals. But let's take a look at some quotes from some of the mods over at TechPB.

From Mike:

Alright, for those who don't know the whole story as to what happened. An ESP Player (who was on the yellow team) found / stole / picked up someone else's Red Playing Badge, brought it to our hospital / base and was given a red armband.

He then proceeded to complete an unknown amount of missions, and shot an unknown amount of our own players in the back both on Saturday and Sunday, all on our side of the field.

Once the word got out on Sunday, that he was having great success at this, other players from yellow began to search around and find / steal / pick up Red Player Badges, and switched to the red side to complete missions and shoot our teammates in the back.

ESP, which was given the award for Most Valuable Team by Barney, openly admitted ON STAGE, ON THE MICROPHONE that they took someone else's player card, and used it to get into our base and get the red armtape, and complete missions behind our scrimmage lines.

Yea you look proud up there showing off the red armband tape you cheated to get.

Another Mod:

I personally think the revised score should be posted publicly here and on PbN and ESP stripped of the MVT.

And Another Mod:

thats the problem with this kind of cheating. not only is there direct impact on the scoreboard, but since the minute the cheating started, it is hard to take the way the game played out seriously anymore.

And here is someone posting:

Wow, that really sucks they had assholes like that Mike. Really hope that team gets banned from LL4 and their MVT revoked for blatantly cheating. I'm honestly surprised it wasn't pulled and them kicked out right when they admitted it.

Another Player:

I actually ended up losing my player ID card, and i told viper to send out a radio call to the reff's and it was at are hospital, So i hauled ass to get it, and thank god it was there cause when i heard about this guy i was worryed if he stole mine.

That one was important because the dude admits he LOST it and then goes on to say that he thought the person who was taped and playing with the card had then STOLEN the player card.

And then we get someone who is crazy talking:

so this asshole not only commited a mistamenor crime(theft of the stickers. if someone could let viper know id like to know who that guy is so he can be properly persecuted for stealing those stickers from Mike who paid for them out of his own pocket.

Again from Mike:

But when the opposing team takes someone else's players card, there is no way to counter that. That's cheating.

and then one of the last ones:

But when the opposing team takes someone else's players card, there is no way to counter that. That's cheating.

Now that is just the tip of the iceberg, there is more on special ops, mcarterbrown and various other forums all over the damn internet. And instead of defending something that has been used since Viper/MXS/Black Cat and another 10 or so production companies who pride themselves on scenario and saying I have to change the rules to change behaviour. He (Viper) calls and allows others to call people (not just ESP, that was just the techPB crowd) cheaters.

I have said it before and I will say it again. I AM NOT A FUCKING CHEATER, I DON'T HAVE TO BE. I AM THAT FUCKING GOOD!

Now I am sure that this will piss the TechPB people off, and if so then fuck it. I am not a fan of ESP, and most Viper players these days make me laugh because they think that they are all that now that me and my team are gone. But this has been allowed since day 1, and you know what he (Viper) fucking knew it. Everyone who reads my site and decides to continue playing his games after he just shit on you and all the money you paid him over the years, you deserve what you get.

As for me defending anyone, in this instance, I am defending me and my team. We have known about this tactic, we have used it, we have defended against it and we have taught new players how to work with it and against it. I am not going to have some cocksucker call me a cheater by proxy because he changed the rules and some guys who beat people who didn't take a game serious enough to see what was coming their way to talk shit about my 180+ games and awards. I got more awards then all of these 'experts' talking. And as for as Viper goes, what a piece of shit. And you people still admire him and his opinions?

Well then pardon me, while I laugh. What the fuck did you think was going to happen? Why don't you guys do something else in private, boycott his events and talk to the field owners and tell them you aren't going to take this shit anymore. You realize he pays his bills with YOUR money right?

Oh that's right, in this instance he threw a field owners team under the bus, and allowed people to brand the field owners nephew a cheater all over the internet. And there is no love lost between me and Joe Stayback, just fucking ask him. But don't believe me about allowing it?

Let's look at the title of the thread posted on TechPB :

Just got off the phone with Viper... yep, that was cheating

Nough said?

No way to counter it? Uhm... hello... YOUR BADGE NUMBER IS ON YOUR CARD! THAT'S HOW YOU COUNTER IT! IT WAS PUT THERE, SPECIFICALLY SO UNPREPARED GENERALS DIDN'T NEED TO INVENT THEIR OWN WAYS TO COUNTER IT.

..and for the matter, why are spy rules even in the game, to bust people with jacked cards... when spies haven't been put into games in years?

No wonder Viper thinks his players are getting dumber. A lot of them are.

11 years ago there were really two forums for paintball, Vipers and warpig.

If a player said you were a cheater, he could only say it to a limited audience, that probably already had an opinion of the accused, the accuser and the act itself. You had a chance to defend yourself in front of your peers.
Now, you can get accused of something by an anonymous asshat that heard something about someone and you are fried. You end up on multiple forums that are national, plus the local fields, plus asshats team forum and facebook page.
Teams back then could run the grey and get away with it. The were admired and copied, learned from and countered.
They are now reviled, nuked on more forums than you can count and the producers get dragged through the coals no matter what they say. The are either protecting a pet team and screwing the others or they are selling a respected team down the river by not standing by them no matter what others may say.
I wish that the producers, be it Viper or anyone else would go back to the rules we had in '99. Put on a game and tell folks "Watch your ass! This game is for thinkers and doers, not runners and gunners." Tell players,"You want to learn some tricks, ask people who have played before, listen around the campfires, read the old forums. Find old players and ask them what the most awesome thing ever done to them was and what they did that was so sneaky. You want counters, ask, and if you don't ask and your ass gets burned, sucks to be you!"
Make it hard again so the smart get rewarded and the others get schooled. Do another game with the same rules and if they don't learn, teach em again the next time.

TB, I disagree with you in that Viper thinks that everyone who's been doing this for 10+ years is a cheater. I don't believe that is the case.

We all know that he knew players did it. Heck, some even found cards and took them to Viper, wanting to know what to do with them and his response was "have fun and go easy on the new guys". So he knew it (we all know that) and he didn't stop it. So if he thinks we're a cheater then he's just as guilty for not stopping it.

What he is doing, it sucking up to all those techpb losers for whatever reason is beyond me. He's stroking their ego's for what? To maybe get that 100+ player base out to ONE game a year and a game that is living losers (I'm adopting your title for it officially now) where Viper probably does not reap as much benefits from larger numbers since his participation in that event seems to be limited to strictly running the game, sending out and collecting missions and that's all. Which is the same amount of work whether you have 40 players or 4000 players the way I see it.

No, Viper is running his player base away, including a field owner which whom he does 3 games a year at his field. Viper is simply playing dumb so that he's not the next victim of the techpb mob.

If you ask me, when techpb was created and those people left pbnation I think its safe to say that the real trash and riffraff that was pbnation left pbnation and is not techpb.

Yes, I'm playing sherwood again in July. But its just to get some shooting time in and have some fun. That would be this weekend at Fort Knox at Payroll's game but I can't make it. I'm going to talk to Joe just as much as to just shoot and have some fun, while ignoring everything else. And in all likeliness, this could be the last Viper game you see us at unless some serious apologizing starts going out to the wavering Viper community.

Radical, it sounds like a good idea.. on the surface. Here's the problem though. What comes with the '99 rules? The ultimate bullshit line: "Make sure the person you're shooting at is having as much fun as you are."

Mills,

You appear to be the eternal optimist, but lets look at what one of the definition of cheating is, shall we? From Merriam Webster "to violate rules dishonestly" and then take a look at the myraid of comments from Kerry above. But let me quote one for you "Players simply managed to take my warnings to players and use them as justification to break the rule."

So I know you don't want to think it or somehow have it in your head that you know he knew so he can't be calling me and everyone else who did this a cheater because that makes no sense, but guess what. He did and he has and he supports TechPB confirming to other people that indeed, these people are cheaters. Because of his exact wording he has made sure to brand everyone going forward doing this a cheater, and has also branded everyone who did it in the past the same thing. You can't justify it, several people gave him the opportunity to do so and he said this: "So before you accuse me of caving to players' whining, would anyone care to think about why no one ever posts about doing it after a game? I can tell you...because they knew they were skirting the rules because they felt that they had a defense by saying that things other than the rules implied otherwise."

The case for appealing to the LCD is indeed funny these days, because that is one of the reasons he gave for my ban and the 'ban' of my team. There were players and teams (according to him) who stated that they would not play Viper games anymore because TS was at them and that TB was at them. Because we would not LET people beat us. A conversation with Sean Scott resulted in the same thing, that TS would be expected to either lose or always pick the 'losing' side so that people could have the opportunity to beat us. So in my mind, most of the people playing his games are already the LCD's, it just seems the LCD's are mad because there are even lower people on the evolutionary chain when it comes to thinking about scenario games.

And Indy that comment hadn't been uttered yet in 99, they wasn't even a GSRP until 2001. MXS was still using the 'BSG' rules (Also known as the original Viper rules). :D That documents needs a history lesson, soon!

TB, shenanigans. I stood there way back when Pat owned BSG and heard that exact same line. GSRP was certainly not the birth of it. It's been around AT LEAST since '99, quite probably before I had even played my first scenario.

GSRP may have been the first time it was written down on a published document for scenario play, but the meme has been there from the beginning.

TB,

I know what he called everyone who's ever done this and like everyone else, I am not happy about it. I am not dismissing what he said and making an excuse for him or anything like that. I was just saying that he really knows that it was not cheating. But that does not get him off the hook. Because knowing the truth does not over ride acting upon it. No, no, no, its even worse when you KNOW the truth and slap the truth (and us) in the face with it.

Viper Quote: "So before you accuse me of caving to players' whining, would anyone care to think about why no one ever posts about doing it after a game? I can tell you...because they knew they were skirting the rules because they felt that they had a defense by saying that things other than the rules implied otherwise." End of Quote.

I didn't address this in my original post but this one is truely ridiculous.

1st - I and others don't "post" everything we do at every game. Not because we are "skirting" the rules, but because I don't have the time.

2nd - If this was truely the case. Joe wouldn't have stood on stage while receiving MVT award, and told EVERYONE... INCLUDING THE MEDIA... exactley what they did! COME ON!!! He told them so they would LEARN SOMETHING and become better scenario players!

Since the above quote from Viper does not hold water.... he must be "caving to players whining"...

Another reason why people like myself don't get on all of the boards and brag about things like using an opposing team's lost player ID is the same reason NFL teams don't win the game on Sunday and then mail the losing the team their playbook on Monday.

If the losing team wants to beat that team, they have to break the game down via videos and practice new plays. In other words, they have to work hard to level the playing field. The NFL commissioner doesn't do it for them.

I know there alot of people who read this blog and will never post a thing in it. If one of you has ever had the desire to run a scenario company, the time is ripe for someone to rise up and bitch slap the self proclaimed king of scenario paintball. If things don't change soon, I may just have to do it myself.

Hawk,

I would definately go to one of your scenarios if you did it.

My feelings is this that I myself am a cheater as I did this at a scenario before at one of Viper's games. This is one reason why I try to play as many promoters as possible as I like the challenge of seeing what each one does differently.

P.S. I just told my wife I was a cheater and got the shit kicked out of me. Just Kidding.

It's pretty funny to go to Ratsnake's website and read:

"We're looking for some awesome commanders for our November game"

Uhhhhhhh, all the awesome Commanders don't play your games anymore bitch.

Maybe it should read:

"We're looking for anyone with a pulse to command our November game"

I remember the "make sure the guy your shooting at" comment at BSG also, but I still believe that is a better comment then the GSRP addendum: "If it aint in the rules it aint happening"
BTW if the targets idea of fun is getting shot more than I am, no problem, but I don't think I owe it to anybody to slow down my game so they can maybe shoot me.
We all learned how to play with the newspaper method: do something, get shot, do it again, get shot, change what you are doing, don't get shot, lesson learned.

For those who don't know I was commanding the red side at LL3. This is my take for what it's worth. ESP useing the red card to get taped was NOT cheating. Where most of the fallout comes from is 1: takeing the stage and bragging about it, the way they did is kind of low class. They are better then that. 2: there is some information that red players remember the ESP player inserting from our deadbox. If they did then and only then did they cheat. As Hawk claims to be a student of TB, I'm a student of team WOW and T. We took base defence to heart and I even barrel tag Tom Kaye and sent him off because he didn't have his red card with him when he came to get taped. I enjoyed my first and only command but there is to much drama before, during, and after for my taste. Check command a game off bucket list move on to the next challage

sorry for the misspellings and typeing. not very good at both

hang loose

honu

First off just because it was done before doesn't give a player an excuse to break the written rules of the event they are attending. The rules expecificaly stated if a players card was found to immediately turn it in. So infact there was rule infractions or the more common term cheating. With this said the case should be closed. But no, those who want to defend or slant the reactions of others have made scenario play the bastard it has envolved to. What's even more disgusting is that many here posting had many on there own team members blantly cheating at LL3 and laugh about it. It's nice that you have those flashy tourney style jerseys to keep track of who did what. TOT Taz knows what I'm talking about among others here. If you want to throw hand grenades make sure you team has it's shit together.

Viper's rules seems to have some problems from the start. Now I love to play the grey areas within ethics and reason. Nothing in Viper's rules stated a player couldn't buy an entry from each side and then use it to tape up in his past events. We pointed this out and I understand why Viper is doing a rule change. All this talk about boycotting Viper's event's is just sandbox kicking and immature.

Esp, is great team and I'll play alongside or against you guys anyday. Unfortunely rules are rules and you got caught. The excuse that you did it at other Viper events doesn't slide here. If your spokesperson would have made a public statement right away most of this hogwash would be over. Your own team member locked the thread on PBN and this only added fuel to the fire.

Delta Squad, get your shit together and rein in your team members who was cheating at the event. Even though judge punches was done doesn't make it ok. Fake deadman walks, not exiting the field directly but instead walking the long way out to gather intel. All in the rulebook and repeatly broken.

PreditorPB tank crew. Where do I start even on two different video angles you still try to defend yourself. I would be ashamed and your responses both public and private makes me wonder why you are allowed on the field.

Now back to the subject. The rules changed for a reason to improve the player experience. I would be proud that a rule was change because I found the loophole. It happens to TOT regularly. But as mentioned before there was a rule inplace for LL3 and it was broken.

This response is soley mine and may or maynot reflect TOT point of view.

RealtorTommy

Tommy, there's so much irony in your post I don't even know where to start.

Here's some food for thought.. on register for the other team. The rules don't say you can't, right? That's why y'all pointed it out. Do you really think you're the first person to think of it? Do you really think this hasn't been pointed out for 10 years?

The rules are being changed now to cater to a specific base of players, because you're a revenue stream. That's all you are. Dollar bills. The rules are consistently made dumber to keep you happy and get your money.

If you're happy with care bear rules, that's fine, just say so. Many posters here are not, and are appalled by the ongoing trend.

i think we should flip this around. imagine if a new or unknown team had done this? imagine if you will, if TechPB did this on the feild?

Now, before the game there was much speculation as to the "unknown" quantity of TechPB in the senario world. our opponets (both on the feild and off) fed viper and others tons of stories abour our secret forum, and that we were conspiring to cheat, and all sorts of simply false rumors and bull shit.

viper approched mike about it and mike's solution was simple - give viper access to the secret forum, so he could see for himself that we weren't planning on cheating, quite the opposite, we were educating our team on the rules.

i personally vehimently disagreed with this solution, as the game officals should not have for knowledge of one teams plans before a game, but we had nothing to hide, and so we agreed.

so, what if TechPB hadn't allowed viper access, and we "found" some cards, and pulled it off in the game to win it?

what situation would the senario world be in then? what would the opponents of TechPB be saying then?



i personally think that a large amount of vipers, and the senario world as a whole reaction to this is becuase you have a group outside of the norm, calling out a group well inside of the norm. if TechPB had done something like this - we would be crusified. but as long as its a "reputable" team ...


whatever, as 10-shot kid pointed out, we saw at LL3 what happens when amature tournament players play against seasoned senario players - the latter spent 2 days in there own spawn.

we may not be better senario players, but we showed everyone we are better paintball players. in the end, i think i'm OK with that.

CP, you play a great martyr... but I'll find you hundreds of scenario players that would pat you on the back for using the other teams cards. The problem arose because Viper allowed this for many years. That's a fact. I've stood there while people showed him the enemy ID they found. He never took them, he'd just shrug and shake his head in pity. For that matter, I've never seen a single promoter, ever, not do that. So, either it was accepted and not against the rules, and changed to make you happy cuz dolla' dolla' bill y'all... OR, Viper didn't read and thoroughly understand his own rules, that he wrote, and sent a mixed message for over a decade. Pick one.

Also, if you showed up and just wanted to play paintball, you should have requested the RTS format, and not a scenario game. The scenario you played just happens to use paintball guns as the marking device.

as anyone on TechPB who knows me will tell you, the way i look at these things is in the black and white. not as in no middle ground, as in what the words on the fucking paper say. in the end thats all that matters. what the rulebook says.

what viper said, what some teams thought, what was done in privous games, none of that matters. the words on the page say it was cheating, simple as that.

i read the rules (like everyone was so worried about), everyone else should have, but the words on the page say it was cheating.

thats the problem, established teams "knowing" they can do whatever they want and get away with it, while us new kids on the block get suspected of cheating and examined under a microscope and every worries about us. i was down right insulted when viper asked to see our private forum. i mean flip that one around ... thats like viper insisting on being in every teams private planning meetings for every event! thats bull shit any way you cut it.

when all along, everyone needed to worry about those with "good" reputations. where was viper in that planning meeting? "oh guys i "found" a players card ..." where the hell was viper then?

cause after-all, even when these established teams cheat, viper and the rest of the senario community tries to cover there ass. whereas if the new guys did it, we'd be cruisifed for it.

i just want the rules to apply to everyone equally, whatever they may be. is that really so much to ask? i know im a guest in this format and going in i knew i would have to roll my eyes are all sorts of LARPing, but is it really so much to ask that at least the rules of LARPing apply to everyone?

I personally hate the way games are being watered down. I personally enjoy the challenge.

CP, I said "Pick one." Wasn't kidding. Martyr doesn't fly with me, but you went right back to it.

I wasn't at this game. Don't know or particularly care what happened, or who's calling who a cheater. All I know is there's an apparent ruling issue going on. I've been behind the scenes for many, many games though, generaled several, written scenario rules, and done everything except produce my own event. I guarantee you, had you used a lost card, nobody would care. There's even a specific procedure, in the rules, to get that card back. You read the rules, so why didn't you do it? You were doing your paperwork, right? You would have caught the mismatch between missions you know were completed, what the promoter said were completed, and who you handed the mission to. Was the guy getting up on stage the first time you found out about it?

Indy, as I do agree with you to a point as this has been going on for years and I personally have done it in the past, but it was made clear that for LL3 the cards were to be turned in for this game. I am only talking about this game not any others. This game was being played more as a Big Game so there were amendaments to the regular rules for this game.

i really don't care what anyone would think if i lost my card. i didn't, becuase i knew that was the only way to get tape on my side. no players card = no tape. i think honu personally barrel tagging TOM FUCKING KAYE becuase he lacked a players card when trying to get tape shows how serious we were about it. that note aside ...

since i was not on the command staff, i don't know the details of anything our team or the other team did in terms of missions and crap. i did my job, which was hold the line, and push them back.

but i do know, honu would come by the TechPB staging area, say, man you guys are doing great, and we'd agree, saying we have the pinned back there pretty good. and then honu said, "yeah the points are pretty tied up" and we'd all be like WTF? we didn't let anyone through the line, how are they getting points? i guess we need to do a better job fucking these guys up on the line, and we'd go out and do it.

however, the baseline of that assumption was that the other team was playing by the rules. cause the only way to make it behind our lines would be to sneak through, or punch through. you #1 can't get tape without a card, and #2 still can't insert on our side of the feild even if you do have tape!

of course in the end, we were holding the line properly. we were pushing them back without any holes or leaks. they were doing alternative #3, cheating.

i know at the end of day 1, when talking with honu, none of us could figure out how they had as many points as they did.

accounting only works when both teams are playing with same set of rules ;) our accounting showed that we needed to keep the line better, there accounting said we don't need the line becuase we are already behind it by methods outside the rules.

Who the fuck is "honu" and what does he have to do with mission scoring? and no, your accounting didn't work, your general staff failed through inexperience... but that's exactly how people learn, so they probably won't make that mistake again. You "super-tight" security was apparently not reconciling badge and card numbers. You can barrel tag Tom all you want for not having a card. It won't help you if you don't actually read the card.

For some tech guys I'm let down. Nobody brought their own card stock? Nobody brought a printer/scanner/fax & laptop?

honu was our general.

lol. see above.

I see a silver lining. Maybe, one day, people will actually read the card that's shoved in their face.

our general staff did an amazing job.

they simply failed to assume that the other team was cheating. as did all of us, becuase like legitimate paintball players, when losing, rather the accuse the other team of cheating, we look to improve our own playing to prevent the loss of the match.

crazy, i know.

That would certainly be called cheating these days Indy, no one wants any accountability any more. They simply feel that playing rec ball for 15 hours with the trappings of scenario is enough. And anything else is well, cheating.

Scenario has always been won by guile and decption if the people on the other side didn't watch for it or plan it.

TechPB wasn't the first to bring guns to bear and beat the other side and almost lose because they didn't play the whole game.

They keep saying it was in the rules, no it wasn't. It is now. And in the face of rules that are grey, then experience trumps all. And while Honu may have learned at the WOW camp, they learned from Me and TS much as Hawk did.

And I can assure you, that they would have been looking for this.

Base security is more than a 50 foot tape drawn around a base and barrel tagging anyone who steps in it.

But the truth is, that some people aren't looking to see the why or the how. And this is not the next front in some seeming war against TechPB. I have no issues with Mike or anyone else on that forum. I will say that in a lot of ways they are like me and value opinion as long as it is concise and understanding.

But CP I am disappointed with you, there is much more to the game much like the markers that you value and know the inner workings of. I expected a little more from you. Tom Kaye, well he was much more into scenario than you think and much more into the grey area. Take it from me, I was there and I taught him as well.

but TB, it WAS in the rules for LL3. they clearly state that a players card is NOT a game prop, and must be returned "immediatly." a players card is personal property, taking one and not returning it is theft. its also cheating. not to mention the inserting on our side of the feild repeatedly.

i can't speak to any other viper games, events, or what the rules back when senario was "pure" but at LL3, using a "found" card to get tape and insert on the other teams side was cheating.

TB, im totally fine with attempting to scam your way into tape, lie, wear a skirt, do jumping jacks, eat a klondike bar ... whatever to get tape. but the rules said/say you can't use anothers players card to do it. thats is the ENTIRE point of requiring a card to get tape. becuase the card is the "gold standard" if you will for whats going on.


there is so much blame the victim going on here.

"oh the other team thought they could do something and nearly won doing it?"

"yeah, and it was cheating"

"well, its your fault either way, you should have assumed they would cheat"

"what?"

seriously?

i guess i should just stay out of the seniaro world if that is the mentality that everyone has. i would have hoped that assuming the other team is cheating wasn't a straegy in paintball, but i guess it is.

who knew?

So who actually has a copy of the event rules, and will scan & post them? The actual LL3 event rules that were handed out at registration, not whatever is floating on the net now.

and CP, you're missing a big point. Some of it is quoted in this thread. Things are apparently being said that if you ever did it at past games, you were cheating the entire time.

That bothers people, because back then, it wasn't cheating. Never was. Whether or not it was cheating at this event, I don't know, nor particularly care beyond morbid curiosity. What is sad here is the gimpy rules for care bears.

then your missing my point.

while us new kids on the block were being policed by viper on merely SUSPITION of POSSIBLY comming up with ideas to cheat ...

a well known team with players who are also staff on PBN, who is a major partner with viper ... blatently cheat, everyone just blames us and makes excuses for them.

tyger tried to blame us for there cheating by saying we talked to much trash, and they lost it and cheated.

now your trying to blame us for there cheating by saying that we were too rookie to assume they were gonna do it. probably becuase like everyone suggested, we read the rules and saw that it was cheating to do what they were doing.


this isn't about nany rules, it isn't about watering down your precious senario trickery, its about the un-equal teatment and application of the rulebook by the community, and by the producer.

Anybody with a functional brain can see that if you really wanted to be sneaky, there's absolutely nothing to stop you from just making another hidden forum, or using chain emails, or IRC, or Skype, or IM, or any of the thousands of private messaging tools. Caving in to that demand on your part was dumb, because it served no real purpose, nor proved anything at all. It was naive and childish of the people asking for it to be done, and sad of Viper to go for it.

I still don't know if it was or wasn't cheating. I know what the rules have been up until now. If somebody can just scan in the rules from the event and email some images for posting, I'll post them no matter what they say. I don't care. I have no dog in this fight.

Dunno who Tyger is, or why you would care about his opinion.

If it wasn't cheating, you learned a valuable lesson and got experience from it. You'll run proper procedures and security will use all the tools available to them properly. If it was cheating, then they fucked up and kudos to you. I can't pull up anything but the current rules as they stand, which were revised after the event. If you've got better, come on with it.

and yeah, it is about nanny rules. You'll realize that when you stop ranting about people on the internet pooping on you, because in the end, it doesn't matter. Everybody can go and play wherever the hell they want. Nanny rules don't help anybody, and that was the ultimate result of this.

Techpb: TO THE FRONT!!!

I'm not sure what the big fuss is about. According to the Ministry of Truth the rule has been in place since the Party held the first scenario game.

War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength

oh i agree, it was dumb and insulting.

the point was that viper felt the need and the community supported and reinforced the need for it. meanwhile his own sponsored team is out cheating there way to almost winning.

thats just blatently wrong. as great as it was to know that viper knows that we didn't cheat, that we were open book about it, and that we played an upfront and honast game, it all just isn't nessisary in the first place.


what i learned?

if you think the other team will play by the rules, your wrong. this is the senario world, regardless of the rulebook, they will be enfornced based on WHO YOU ARE, not what you did. people will judge you based on what group you a part of, not what you did on the feild.

bascially, i learned that senario paintball, in all its attempts to be seen as "serious" and "real" paintball, is a fuck joke.

i leave this covnersation with only the question: why even play at all? why pay the money, why take the pain of 5 pushes over that damn hill in the finall battle (hit well over 100 times in less then 15 minutes), and why suffer the dehydration, sweat and mud of the feild, if your skill as a player has no effect on the scoreboard?

meanwhile, TechPB will be playing paintball. TECHPB TO THE FRONT!

This was copied from my registration packet:

Equipment and supplies

Player packet: When you check in you will receive a packet with a player ID card (tells about the character you are playing) and a Player Badge. DO NOT LOSE EITHER OF THESE. They will not be replaced for any reason! If you find one please turn it in at the registration counter immediately.

Armband Tape: This will be provided by your commander or one of his officers, not by the event staff. Medics must also wear a white armband. We ask that the commanders tape both arms with their team color so as to allow their own players to identify them. You may also lie all you want with regard to your team affiliation. This is a roleplaying game. The only legal way to acquire armband tape is from your commander or a legal member of that team that was placed on that side by the event staff. You are not required to wear your team color armband tape. The team color is not intended to show you whom to shoot, it is designed to assist your teammates in knowing who not to shoot!


I looked at some of the older registrations from Viper and it does not state turning the card in like this one does.

i leave this covnersation with only the question: why even play at all? why pay the money, why take the pain of 5 pushes over that damn hill in the finall battle (hit well over 100 times in less then 15 minutes), and why suffer the dehydration, sweat and mud of the feild, if your skill as a player has no effect on the scoreboard?

Well, it kind of depends. If people are cheating, there is no point.. but what happens when it's not? What if it turned out that your XO was a spy for the entire event, and the missions you went on were intentionally decoded incorrectly? Played your balls off, thought you won every mission, but lost by an avalanche. Nothing any of you did mattered, because 1 person was a step ahead. That's happened before too. It has another thing in common with current drama... rules went the way of the nanny, no more placed spies.


...but you must not have seen some of my past rants. Scenarios aren't really competitions. It's entertainment.

Interesting that Indy has so much to say about the event but wasn't there.
Hell TB you wasn't even there..Hmmm

TB, get your shit straight brother. It was printed in the rules packet and was posted by a link in all paintball forums at the time. Under "Don't be that guy" referring to players not knowing the rules for the event.

that is the fundamental problem i have, exactly.

there is all manner of on-feild shens i can deal with. i can even roll my eyes about LAWs, and helicopters and all the rest of the LARPing. i get it. i feel like i have grow beyond it, but i get it that some poeple like that stuff.

the problem is exactly like you said. if i paid over $500 dollars (hotel, car, food, paint ...) to be fucked out of a win by some single asshole playing some practical joke, i just might hurt him. badly.

thats not fun. at least its not fun for 1,000 other players out there. its not entertaining.

and the poeple who have the last laugh won't be those playing the pranks, it will be all the poeple who don't want to put up with that shit not playing the next game. and then you will all lement the death of "real senario" and the nany-rules, and talk about "back in the day"

and the rest of us ... we'll just be playing paintball. cuase we didn't show up to play practical jokes on each other, we went through high school already, we showed up to play paintball. cause amazingly enough, we enjoy paintball.


if you want senario paintball to be seen by the industry and the player base in general as a mature and respected form of paintball, you have to act like a mature and respected form of paintball. if you want to play practical jokes on each other, then you have to accept that no one respects your form of paintball.

you can't have it both ways. its either serious competition, with real honors and awards and rankings and rules, or its all just a fuckin joke.

Tommy, I don't have to be there. I can point out where people, by their own admission, fucked up, like "checking cards" without apparently ever actually reading them. I find it funny, because it's not new or unique.

How is it not funny that a side yelling the other team cheated, still went through all of the unnecessary motions with security, even after the rule change, but failed to do it right? That will always be funny. I've done the same shit, only glance at a card, and it bit me. That's how you gain experience. If the rule had not been changed, your side still apparently would have won, there wouldn't be this grand forum drama, and your general staff & security would've learned why you do their paperwork, and match badge to ID instead of a cursory glance.

All of that because of a few lines of text. Of course it's funny. Sad, but funny... and this is an open forum, I can speak on whatever topic I'd like, free from censorship. If you have issues with what I say, take me on point by point.


CP, some games, if it's a landslide, won't even announce the score. Like kid's soccer.

...but don't confuse "going back to the old days" with people who do actually want a competition, just one whose rules require a bit of brain power to back up the paintball, which really was the only good thing about the "old days". The unfortunate trend seems to be for scenario to stay entertainment, and the rules to get dumber. It's not exactly a consistent entity either. There's dozens of scenarios every month, and nothing about them is standard or even on the same level. Though you couldn't want to play that open rule set, said so yourself. If you were outsmarted, you'd physically assault them. You can't have that attitude in a thinking game. Fortunately, at least, you apparently didn't play one.

if by thinking game you mean figuring out ways to have a community and producer cover your own ass for cheating, then yeah, i don't have what it takes to want to shell out serious money to do that.

and im more then happy to not have to do that when i don't want to.

if thats what you ment, then yeah, your perfectly right.



if by thinking game you mean focus all your energy on making yourself a better paintball player and to play more effectivly as a team in order to win a game of paintball, well then yes, i do play a thinking man's game.

its called paintball. i play it every weekend.




but you said it yourself, you not interested in the competition part of the competition. and anyone who is interested in not lawyer-balling there way into a win simply isn't playing a thinking mans game?

im interested in playing paintball. i love paintball, give me a 15 BPS ramping gun, or a stock class gun, an old 10 man hyperball feild or the thickest woods you've ever seen, and i am more then happy to play paintball in it.

what i am not happy to be is a pawn in someone elses practical joke. that alone makes your format a complete farce of a competition. essentially a measure of nothing at all other then how low you will stoop to cover up how bad you are at playing paintball.

i play paintball. wanna see if your smarter or a better player, come onto the paintball feild and play me.

Skewing it doesn't work with me. I get right back to my points. It's simple. If the rule hadn't been changed, and the same exact thing happened over again, would you still be crying about all the lost points? If yes, you should never have stepped on a scenario field to begin with, because you're not capable of handling it.

Fact is, I have said absolutely nothing about when, where, or how I choose to play. I'm here pointing out some facts that you've juts come to grips with, like scenario is entertainment. You're too busy making shit up you think I said to even attempt to figure out that I think it's a bad thing.

I don't play much anymore, generally by special request of a friend only. There is no competitive scenario format, so there is nowhere currently worth playing to me. If I wanted to be king shit of the rec field, I'd just go play tournaments. It's definitely way easier with a lot less frustration and in many cases, personal expense.

Here's the difference between how you & I approach the exact same event. You'd go out and fiddle with your marker, get bodies to the front, etc. I'd sit down with my laptop and jam your entire sides radios. Is that a "practical joke?" No. Is it ferociously effective? Hell yeah. I thought about the best way to hamstring as many of the other team as I possibly could, and the rules say I must stay off ref & command frequencies, that's it.

What would be your reaction to that one?

you can just edit this into my last post TB.


so you just don't play paintball at a paintball game? and then you come in here and try to tell me how to play paintball better?

i think that pretty much sums up the discussion. you, don't play paintball. i do. why would i ever listen to anything you have to say about a paintball game? you sound like you don't even want to play paintball, i do. seems i'm kinda the expert here, not you.

this whole thing got pretty pethetic when you admit that you don't care about a competitive game that you don't even play.

why i have even dignified your posts with a reponse is beyond me. this is over.

Ahh, poor CP can't do anything but attack me. Can barely read apparently, as I said there were no competitions worth playing. Gee, I must really hate competing.

You're not playing a paintball game. You're playing a scenario paintball game. Scenario is even the word that comes first. Paintball is one method, amongst many, to eliminate people. It's the primary means, it makes promoters happy because they make more money, but it has never been the exclusive method. The rules are pretty clear, and include many ways to do so, and many don't require a marker.

One point I'm not clear on. Are you just a giant pussy about general deception, or anything that doesn't specifically require a paintball marker to do? There is a line, that's why I laid it out easily, even though you couldn't answer. It even had symbolism in it. A found card being deception, and a laptop being technology.

As for expertise, bring it on. If you'd like to compare time spent on the scenario field, number of eliminations in a scenario, awards, factions commanded, games written, formats written, rules written, rule changed because of shit you did, I can play that game.

...and my published article is called You Should Listen to Me! for a reason.

why i have even dignified your posts with a reponse is beyond me. this is over.

Because you want to compete, but don't want to compete. Your are a true credit to intardnet forum drama.

I'm going to sum up this entire thread.

1) Looks like whoever took the card cheated according to the rules for that event. Complacency with rule reading is a piss poor excuse.
2) Scenario vets think the rule change is for paste eating noobs.
3) People have hated on TechPB for shit they didn't even do (welcome to my world! lol)
4) TB hates Viper.
5) CP doesn't want to play a scenario, he wants to compete in a big game.
6) Some side didn't know how to do basic accounting or read cards.
7) Even if CP wanted to play a scenario, a competitive venue doesn't really exist.
8) Finger point at Tyger! (who the hell is Tyger?)
9) Hawk may run his own game.
10) Payroll has 200 pre-regs for something.
11) I'm troll that likes to argue.
12) Forum Drama. Which is apparently all locked and deleted. Can't find any of it.

People seem to think there was a change to the rules for LL3 to specifically draw attention and single out the rule regarding the player card and that this change had specifically prohibited the use of the player card by the other side.

I'm not sure who told who that it was made specifically illegal, because there was absolutely no indication to that change to anyone who has read previous versions of Vipers rules and played previous games.

The actual RULES had no change. The registration packets from game to game may be different, Some fields Viper does the packets, some he does not. At LL3, CPX handled everything to my knowledge. But whats written on registration packets are not what is considered to be the rules, are they?

Version 6.5 are the newest rules, with the change to the ID card. LL3 was played with wither 6.3 or 6.4. Version 6.3's rule is identical to 6.4. I have a version (not sure which number) taken from November 2008 on our Team Forums still showing the rules in the same wording. There have been MANY rule changes since 2008 and I know the Grail Game played the first weekend of May had the same wording for the rule. Not sure how much proof anyone needs to believe that...there was no rule change.

Can we PLEASE drop this idea that this rule was different than before? It was exactly the same.

Wait what?

Let me get this straight, because this continues to get funnier. There were game rules, that were not on the rule sheet? Who the fuck does that make sense to?

No, that's not it. Because we know that rules are only rules if they are in the...rules.

There is some misconception that because the full warning sometimes added on the registration packet in regards to the ID card was not on it this time, therefore the rules were different.

Which we know this is not the case. What is or is not written on the registration packet has nothing to do with the rules. But it seems some people took the absence of just that, as a addendum to the rules.

Well that's an easy one. A lot of people don't even see the registration form except for the second it takes to sign off on it. Used to be you could even get by with only signing off on that crap once a year.

What's next, a debate about the appropriate flying and arm flapping speed of an evil monkey?

Realator Tommy, you seem to be confused.

You are addressing myself and my teammates as Delta Squad.

We are not Delta Squad, however a Delta Squad was in attendance at LL3

No one from Delta Paintball Team received a judge punch at LL3, although members of the Delta Paintball team did enjoy watching cockerpunk catch a judge punch for overshooting Blue and also get yanked for playing on in the final battle, something he denies yet multiple people witnessed and enjoyed in the re-telling over and over and over again.

Check your facts before you spew off at the mouth.
You are more than welcome to address any issues further with us at www.deltapaintball.com in the forum section of our website.

So as I see it..The rules stated immediately return any players cards, both stated in the player packet and in Viper's online set of rules for LL3 but disregard the rules posted as we should all now that's not the rules...

LMAO

Wow cp, we need to be more mature or you'll kick our ass? LOL

Btw your line was utter shit in the spikey forest of doom. Had our side actually played compeditevly we could have exploited it and won. I made sure more than just on mission running team made it through there before realizing one side stupidly listened to vipers "this is a for fun game" rehtoric and I was on it.

Why team wow is also failing to say, by name and association, who the player was who blew our hospital, using our insert, with our Id, is a mystery. Or maybe like me they realize there is no need. Or maybe like me they realized who did what when at this game doesn't mean jack shit compared to vipers reaction to it.

Your doing a great job showing what tpb is all about by yourselves. Vipers reaction is the only part I didn't expect.

Your correct I ment to type Delta.
I would check Tshields or who was with him doing the long intel walks when shot out and repeatedly warned by refs and for doing false deadman walks. Your free to contact our team president or log on our forum but I think as a tight knit team you know what went on at LL3 or maybe you should look closer at who reps your team.

CockerPunk isn't on our team, but you might want to fact check on what you just posted.

TB, sorry to have to address this here

Realtor Tommy, ask and you shall receive.

Tshields will be along shortly to refute your accusations. Waldo should be in shortly to relay the CP on field antics.
Honu was present the only time tshields was at your base, where he had just been eliminated along with his partner Breezy. They exited via the nearest exit, the bus stop, as the rules specify to exit the field at the nearest exit, which would have been the bus stop. But I will let shields tell it, because it's his story after all.

Tommy, are you out of your fucking mind???? For the record, it was myself and Breazy of the Reservoir Dogs who made it to your base and then shot out by some guys. We then had to leave the field, from your base up the path past the hospital, where I stopped to talk to HONU, YOUR GENERAL, and all the while, CLIFF, the HEAD REF was there with us..... There was no judge punch, nor any warnings from a judge, and I'm sure your general can attest to this..... No need to try to run my name through the mud, I play hard, talk shit and back it all up with my play....

And also, I was actually GIVEN 2 of your cards and I had a lenghty discussion with Viper about this issue that is at hand, I turned the ones I got in only because in said discussion, I was told that if done, and we won, it wouldn't be as sweet as winning without having the upper hand, (just turn it in) was what another person in said discussion said.....

Other witnesses to the cockerpunk shens will be along shortly.....

Wow. I have one word to sum up the shit slinging going on in the forums.

Disgraceful.

Heres what I think of Viper's handling of the situation.

Disgraceful.

Heres what I personally think of the situation.

Suck it up cry babies. ALL of you. Both sides of the fence.

You think LL3 is special? You think LL3 was the first, or the last, game to not go quite right due to a fairly big mistake by human error? And I say "game" because no matter what the sport is, you're gonna get those couple of games that have problems, whether its the rules, players, refs, or venues.

You think everyone on your team is a stand up player? Yeah... think again. You think everyone on the other team is a stand up player. Yeah...

I've seen scenarios get a hosed by mistakes made by refs or players. I've seen tournaments get hosed by bad calls and/or favoritism. I've had football games get hosed because my team didn't come from the same country as the ref as the other team did. Oh well. Thats life. Life ain't easy, and it don't always go according to plan.

Some crazy bitch just drove her car into my new house. Ppl who know me were amazed I didn't go apeshit over it at the time. But what would ranting and raving and being an asshat at three in the morning accomplish now that its happened?

Are you allowed to get upset about it? Sure. Vent a little. Discuss it with some people a little. See if theres a way to fix things. If not, vote with your money somewhere else. But keep the shit slinging in your pants. LL3 was not the end of the world.

Get back out there and play some more! Just cause one game left a bad taste in your mouth, shouldn't be the end of it.

At Dinner Battle Tech PB Mod Cockinbut (Cocker Punk) was seen overshooting Blue and playing on with hits.

To Bunker one of the Biggest Name's in the sport and playing on, then make your side along with techpb seam like there god’s gift to paintball and never cheat is complete and utter BS

Delta Paintball, your team member can refute anything he wants. Several witnessed the act and it has nothing to do with the base. Several of my team members and acouple younger kids saw what was done. As I said if your going to through hand grenades, make sure your team is clean. I can careless about the mud slinging..I saw it along with others..sorry I did, it's my fault for seeing it. Sorry for reading the rules.
It will become a he said she said..that's ok I can only say what I saw and called it out to the public. Nothing much I can do as your team plays a different region, come South, I have no problem asking a producer to keep a look out. This is done unless you want to go back and forth. I invited you to our forum where I could gather those who were there, you chose to keep going here.

You saw what???? And in your post you said, you saw me OR the person with me???? WTF???? Come on guy, I'm well known, and I wear a bright yellow jersey...... As for the people you say "saw" me, did they see me OR the person I was with??? And are they all from Techpb???? Uh, this place right here is NEUTRAL! TB don't play favorites, so, if you got something, tell your people to let it be known and for them to post up as who they really are.... Take the make believe back to the ghetto of paintball, and enjoy..... The funniest thing is why wasn't this said and brought to the attention of DPT right away???? If in fact any member on our team was cheating, we were in a central area RIGHT ACROSS FROM YOU GUYS, and it would have been very easy to say, hey, this player on your team did this, can you address it.... But no, you waited 5 weeks later to spew the bs.... sorry fella, I don't cheat, and don't need to....... Enjoy your tea partys

The way I see it this is done on to the next game.

Shields yes I did see you and a few others walking down the dirt road near the Hyperball field so don't tell me you were coming from our base. You wanted to see where our position was so I grabbed a ref and I know he had you leave the first exit closest to where you were. Either way the game is done and over now let's all go drink.

Realtor Tommy ,
I will address this in the forum into which you reared your accusation. We have nothing to hide.
I will reiterate, no one from this team received a judge punch or warning.

You may toss your flights of fancy about with great aplomb, however you and I both know how morally ambiguous you can be when it serves your own needs, or those around you.

My team's rep is hardly one of cheating. It's not, for a lack of a bette term , how we roll.
I've played with many fine representatives of your southern region, in fact i rub elbows with one of them on a regular basis at his own field in PA.You know the one Mr. high and mighty got judge punched for overshooting and playing on.
Heck, I even import one of the more talented guys from down south twice a year to that same field.
He knows how we play, and he knows what we are and aren't about.

At this point the only back and forth I'm actually interested in is the type done in the bedroom.
In the meantime you and your buddies can keep on finger banging in that private room over at the ghetto, dreaming about lil old me.

Wow... I'm just not sure what to say. At least not without being a dick about it. I wasn't even there. But fucking grow up already. You got burned... learn from it.

You pulled a longtime ok play, it was or now is illegal and they are backpedaling to CYA with the masses. Go home and check all your shit, every dirty move so that next time your in the clear(hopefully).

I played a game where we got totally fucked because someone pulled a move that we saw akin to cheating. I have come to terms and learned that it was not illegal per the rules. Shame on me I didn't think enough, call it inexperience. Now, I always barrel tag anyone "looking" for something lost on field just to be safe.


Read the god damn rules, check back often. Things change. For better, for worse. If you don't like it, don't play or play elsewhere.

If it's not covered in the rules, ask about it. As I recall, a statement similar to this is actually written in the rules. If you didn't see it in the rules and you see it in the player packet, ask to clarify; that is part of what the Huge pre-game briefing is for.

Unfortunatly, just another chink in the long-time crumbling of a great genre of paintball.

I like how once Cockerpunk's bitch card got pulled he ran away. Why are you even posting here? I thought TB was a dick or thats at least what you've said in your videos. I find it very funny how you paint this picture of yourself as this paragon of fair play yet you got disciplined for playing questionably. Stop playing yourself you clown.

There are some videos about me? Where? I would love to see them, my narcissism needs a fix. :D

Taz, I feel bad for you. You state that you saw me and others walking down the dirt road, well, if we were past the hyperball field, wouldn't the CLOSEST exit be where the fucking bus stop is??? And when was this, most people when shot out near the hyper ball field left out through the exit right near there.... Please don't make VAGUE statements when calling someone a cheater, be SPECIFIC..... Otherwise, what your saying can be said about anyone.... I could say, I saw taz walking down the dirt road, he was trying to see our position.... But in reality, who the fuck needed to know anyone's position??? I can tell you the positions, everyone's at the god damn stalemated 50 of the field..... When you get all your facts straight, come back and let me know.....

Shadawg,
Honestly don't care where or who you play with, doesn't have any thing to do with the issue and is a side step, typical reaction. Taz our team president and I which is part of the leadership for Team On Target posted what we saw. Now you can refute. But by lowering yourself to personal attacks for retaliation because your team member was caught cheating and reported to a ref who pulled him off the field and witnessed other times also was expected. All I can say shit happens to any team, covering it up and not addressing your team member is a matter of how your team runs itself.

Tshields, I enjoy coffee not tea, to bad you have me confussed with a paintball website. I play for Team On Target, one of the mission teams at LL3,

On a serious note I will be in New Jersey (Mays Landing Area)my hometown for a week next week if anyone wants to meet and discuss over a cocktail.

Delta, I think all teams can look at this game and see some good and bad from it in regards to the players and overall game. This goes for my team as well. I do sometimes get heated because I am very competitive and want to win. At the end of the event we all need to address issues that are destroying scenario paintball. Also know that we may argue with you, but at the end of the day we would fight alongside you guys anytime and I hope the feeling is mutual.

This is quite amusing.

I want to respond to some of the comments above posted by those from TechPB. (quite a while ago seeing as there are over 80 posts on this topic).

There were comments made that everyone was worried about TechPB cheating and talking all kinds of trash. Well, I would be included in everyone and that was not me. If you read my original post you will see I defended Mike and his reasons for concern. My problem was never with TechPB. I thought you guys played a great game and held your lines well.

Someone above commented that there was no way we were getting through your lines... not true. We found ways through (without using your armband tape), you just didn't know it. That's part of scenario.

The problem with this whole thing from the very beginning is the double standard being set by Viper. He used the credit card example in his forum which I found to be a joke. This isn't a credit card this is a scenario game.

If the rules say one thing... than the promoter who writes the rules tells you it's OK in private and public settings to do something... than turns around and says you should have read the rules and not listened to what I said!

Let's see if I got this straight:

1) The rules I write are first.

2) What I say is of lesser importance and should not be listened too if it doesn't line up with my rules.

3) I guess that means what you do than is of the least importance since it doesn't line up with the rules or what you say!

Last but not least... if the shoe was on the other foot and TechPB was being thrown under the bus for this... YES, I would be on here just the same! Those who know me know this has nothing to do with ESP. This has to do with doing what's right. I don't expect you to understand why many on here feel the way they do. There is a lot more to this behind the scenes.

Realtor Tommy

I refute your accusations because I know them to be untrue.
I am not attacking you, I am just pointing out my observation that you would have no problem attempting to besmirch someone to advance your own position in an argument, as you have demonstrated to me personally that you are a morally ambiguous person who has no problem selling out deeply held personal beliefs for personal gain.
I don't think anything more needs to be said about your character, you said it yourself to me a long time ago. Literally.

Taz, If there was an issue to be addressed, we would have addressed it by now. I again reiterate tshields comments, that you were staged directly across from us, and had you actually had an issue it should have been raised on the spot, not conveniently pulled out of Realtor Tommy's ass 2 months later.

If you were actually standing next to tshields when he supposedly was being yanked off the field you might have a better perception of what was or was not said to him. However he has stated he received no warnings, he has told you what exit he was headed for on the field, and frankly I know him to not be a morally suspect person, unlike my knowledge of Tommy. So yes, I am going to take his account of events as the truth. Sorry, Tommy just isn't credible in my eyes.

Once with more feeling Tommy, I don't care what you have to say, all this shit was made up after we exposed cockerpunks antics on spec-ops and elsewhere.

Good day sir.

WOW!

It looks to me like there are just no reasons why we need to think or even consider bringing paintball games to new players. All the name calling and BS, you did this and that crap was suppose to stay in Jr High School. Personally this whole fiascal has brought nothing but shame and disgrace to Scenario Paintball completely. It's not like you won some big grand prize whether you won or lost. Most people are under the impression that paintball is a hobby, not a sport and here's the reason there's no national exposure from the press about the sport. You have taken a national promoter and helped make him look even worse and then made yourselves look like immature children...... What's next, a new rule where you have to ask permission before you shoot at a player on the other side?

Actually, the 'National Promoter" put himself in this position. And if getting new players means shitting on the old ones, then as one of the old ones I say fuck that.

That was your one justme, I suggest that you post up a real email address and user name next time (the only 2 things I require) or your comments will fall on deaf ears.

This to me isn't about the rule change, rules have changed from the beginning, I can show you the original GSRP. What this is about is the attitude that he took towards the people who have been playing his game.

Sure he re-opened the thread, but he didn't apologize for calling his base cheaters or criminals. The player card belongs to the player now and is personal property? WTF, when did a game prop (and that was always a game prop) become that?

Here is one quote:

At the urging of a few reasonable people, whose opinions I value, I am going to unlock this thread so that this can be discussed.

Part of the reason for this is my own backtracking and research. Upon further investigation I realized that the actual phrase "If you find one please turn it in at the registration counter immediately." was not actually added until February of 2009.

And the other:

So I stand corrected with regard to how long it has been in the official rules. After looking back I found that the added clarification was much more recent. So while it hasn't been there for years, it has been there for well over a year, and was announced online when it was added.

Look up the words backhanded apology and see what I mean.

As for the he said, she said. The truth is that there is a thing called a judge punch. Make the refs enforce the rules, there are no damn community policing in the NFL, NHL or NBL. NO undercover player refs, make the damn refs enforce the rules. And if not than just like going into second base spikes up or high sticking or Elbow blocks or dog pile punching, it is part of the damn game.

Shields,

The Hyperball field is right near the tape line where you can exit directly right there so what on earth are you talking about? Are you telling me you had to walk down the road passed us to get out? Learn the game first before you start questioning me on scenario play.

Now let's move on

shadawg.
Really? I did this for a player I met twice for about 5 minutes total and never played alongside. Yeah whatever.

If by next to Tshields you mean 10-15 feet away when the ref to him to leave as he was walking on the main road with his barrel condom on his marker/shotout from 11 towards 14/15. Then yes we was there.


TB knows about the thread I made awhile back and even commented,
I named three teams at first and I was asked to use(insert scenario teams here)
I had Delta in there, wish I didn't remove it, So it isn't a new subject. Might want to read up on the full discussion.

Posted 21 June 2010 - 11:19 AM
Should teams be called to the bench?

The public paintball bench so to speak....

I've debated this for years. With the proverbial he said, she said mentality of the paintball world. Should teams who have players that go out of their way to cheat be called to the bench?


With larger teams like (insert scenario teams here) at LL3 that didn't abide by the rules with many witnesses. This isn't just about LL3, it's about paintball in general.
This isn't a case of disgruntled losers or looking to jab at a team but clean up the actions of those or point out to the world these things are going on to the other players, field owners and producers. It's their choice who should be allowed to play or put on probation.
How should the players be called to the bench? Contacting by private means may not change the actions of those in the future. Posting about the cheating actions of team members most of the time will be followed up by those accused to make excuses or try to put blame back on the the one calling them out. If they hide on another web site they can get their fanclub to spam the thread, have a mod lock it, if not themselves lock it. With undeniable video footage and witnesses by more then one player they should be called to the bench. Should the producers listen more after an event to reduce the chances at the next event? With the money we spend at events, is it too much to ask for fair play and a good experience?

just a question for you Tommy and Taz, was the guy you all saw BLACK???? Because there was a guy playing with us that had a DPT jersey on and it said SHIELDS on the back of it, my jersey says SHOOT ON SIGHT on the back..... if the player you guys are referencing was neither black nor had said SHOOT ON SIGHT JERSEY on, then it was not me you speak of and again, like I stated from the get go, WTF are you guys talking about.... Oh, and I'm not backpedaling, one of our new guys brought the situation you guys are referencing up last night, and I just have to say, GET YOUR FUCKING FACTS STRAIGHT..... I'm a loud person, big and chunky, and I stand out, so when you see ME, you'll know it's me...... And when you see an issue, point it out, don't wait and get shit twisted up and then try to come out with this nonsense..... and said teammate will post up later, his name is Short Round

Like I said tommy, your perception is wrong, namely because you weren't there with the player and the ref.
Now that you and your Captain Taz are being a bit more specific, we can narrow things down.
The player you 2 are referring to is not Mr. Shields, but another player from Delta who was using one of Shields back up shirts.

That player was eliminated, as he had been on a helicopter mission, he was out when you and your teammates fired on him from the bushes you were hiding in. He was in fact looking for a referee to turn over helicopter props to, so that he could exit the field.

In his own words:

" we were on a helicopter mission and had just been taken out by a law and so we were walking back to return the helicopter prop to barney. On the way, we took fire from the bushes on the side of the road for reasons unknown, we had our guns up the entire time. Being as we were already dead, we kept walking until we could find a ref that could return the prop to barney for us. There was no ref "repeatedly warning us for doing false deadman walks"

We take accusations of cheating very seriously, and as I said prior, your perception is not the truth, but how you interpreted something from distance.
Next time, please have your facts straight before you point an accusatory finger at our team.

I would also reiterate that Viper holds teams accountable for their actions and if you witness what you believe to be cheating and you are sure of it, you take it to the game director and let the team defend their actions or be held accountable for them, not pull it out of your ass 2 months after the fact to try and smear someone, especially when you don't actually have anything more than an impression of a conversation from a distance.

Sorry not him,,,,

We were not in the bushes, we were in the field by 11 close the road. There was no shooting anywhere near us as the line was up ahead and we was completing a mission.
We watched the fake deadman walk for a while. We asked a closer player to barrel tag and get a ref but instead Taz yelled and got a ref pointed out what was going on the ref ran them down as they tried to keep walking. We walked up and it was Tshields he was laughing and joking...

Can you think up another story as I'm amused.

100!

First after Hawk!

Really, this is getting old.

I stand by my original statement.
Your full of shit. This is nothing more than convenient posturing to deflect away from your buddies over at techpb actions.
Nuff said.

Shields can pursue this further, as it's your desire to continue to run his name through the mud.

also what the fuck is a fake deadmans walk?

You sound like an idiot. You are either doing one or you are dead.

Was there something in the rules new that said you cannot, being a live player do a DMW?

Do you know what a properly executed DMW is?

If you are dead your not doing a fake deadmans walk, you are out. Period. If you are walking with your gun up. you are out. Period.

If you are live and you are aimlessly wandering around, not commingling with dead players mind you, or doing any of the above,but just actually walking around and be low key, maybe even not answering a question like " are you out? " with a yes or a no, but maybe a i'm looking for my friend, my wallet, moon boots, grants tomb, etc. you are doing a DMW.

What they are trying to call fake dead man walks are when people are out, and are walking into areas to 'gather intel' to then use when you get off the field taking away any advantage that they think that they have.

Thank you for the clarification TB. I didn't recognize the term because frankly, there is no such thing.

Here is a small thing to ponder.
Most (all) of Team ESP has something to do outside of Paintball. We dont need to be Forum Trolls,(Its too damn Nice outside) Getting into the he said, she said, It said, It changed., Bla Bla Bla Cry Cry Cry side of Paintball. If I wanted that I would actually sit down with my smoking hot girlfriend for a night of Shitty Reality TV, cosmo in hand. Then we could talk about our feelings, and spoon.
I for one Just enjoy the SPORT,Not Hobbie, (Hobbies include things like collecting Stamps) With its full flavor, not some PG version.

Something to ponder:
What will you do when everyone gets a Trophy, Win or Loose? Where does this stop as a whole. Not everyone gets picked first For kickball on the playground, and sometimes that's what it takes (or took) to make someone Excel. Now it just seems like who can complain better. Or who's parents are better friends with the Coach, or who promised more for next seasons uniforms.
This isnt Just about Paintball, Its a General Issue Plaguing Modern America.

Thank you to all that Have actually seen what is right and wrong with what happened. We can debate the direct meaning of the word "Please", Does a speed Limit Sign say "55 Please"?

Shadawg
Thank you for the clarification TB. I didn't recognize the term because frankly, there is no such thing.
07/13/10 @ 21:44


The term has been used for many years in paintball. That's the sport we are playing remember? The sport where honor and having a great time on the field, no matter what the outcome, but it seems you haven't heard the term .
Some call it a deadman's walk and others call it fake deadman's walk as it's used for cheating. Must be a Florida term if you never heard it or think there's no such thing.

I took the liberty to only include what pertains to the infraction, instead of printing all the rules of elimation and saving a long read.

Eliminations: Once eliminated you must immediately exit the field or report to your “hospital.” You must take the shortest reasonable path to do so. Using your “dead time” on the field to do reconnaissance will result in a judge punch on your player badge.

Now that's clearified. Those who saw what was going on will keep talking about it. I've been asked to editor a blog, a blog will contain a wall of shame so to speak, enjoy.

"Now that's clearified. Those who saw what was going on will keep talking about it. I've been asked to editor a blog, a blog will contain a wall of shame so to speak, enjoy."

Clearified is not a real word. You either were asked to be the editor, edit the blog, or be a contributor. It would be "the" blog, not "a blog". If the grammar doesn't improve, people will have a hard enough time reading it, let alone enjoying it.

It will be completely worthless without empirical data on it. Without videos, or other empirical evidence, you'll have nothing more than a he-said, she-said blog.

Neoskul, totally agree as much as some hate to admit it there are winners and losers in our sport and not everyone should receive an award.

Shields, If it wasn't you fine, but we did not say anything because in reality it was dealt with on the field by the refs so I felt no need to bring it up. We just discussed it on here with you not on a bunch of other forums. During this time it wasn't even dark yet it was just starting to get dark and I was able to see you on the dirt road ad I believe we were with a bunch of guys. Like I said it is over and done with if you want to discuss further let's do it in person next week or e-mail me and we can talk on the phone as I have no problems with that.

I am one of the most competitive players you will ever talk with so yes sometimes my emotions get the best of me.

Tommy,

Be careful with your Wall of Shame, you just might wind up on it when the winds of change blow.

As for quoting rules, again, unless the game director or a ref judge punched the person who infracted the rule, than it is NOT up to you to be Judge, Jury or Executioner.

I am not taking anyone's side as far was what was or wasn't done.

What I am saying, is this bullshit of not on Monday Morning Quarterbacking, but Monday Morning Reffing and going after people long after anything can be done about it online is some fucking bullshit.

I think we have enough leadership on hear as well as experienced players on here that we can go back and forth with some issues and problems and resolve them.

We need to all come together (We do not have to agree on everything), but we are missing out on the games of old and competitve spirit we all once had.

I think most of our discussions of brought up great points on each side. We need to make a list of the most competitive scenarios each year (No matter what field or promoter)and let's start traveling to these fields like we once did and get the best bang for our buck.

I have seen many of the smaller producers lately putting on some really good scenarios that were super competitive. I don't know how many times I have contacted a producer and asked for there top game or game they want to stand out and they come back with all my games are good. I want to know the games they have as Big Game, Scenario, Competitve, Fun.

My goal and my teams goal is to hit as many producers and fields as possible. So what games is everyone looking at the end of season?

Let's start talking next year and remainder of this years top games and let's get as many teams as we can to these.

I know I will be hitting a few fields for open play while in New Jersey to scout a few out for next year.

Hell contact me and let's chat at what's out there.

Taz, there is nothing in jersey right now that offers anything remotely close to competitive scenario play.

Poco Loco, and EMR in PA
Albany Scenario Club in NY
Outdoors Adventures in VA

Seem to be the best setup s int he NE/ Mid Atlantic

Tommy,
as noted by TB very careful, there are libel laws for a reason.

Taz, if you want to talk about some decent rec fields in your area when you come home, hit me up via pm either on our forum, MCB or "gasp"the nation, same name all locations.

It isn't libel I am concerned about. And who is going to sue who really? And where will you? I mean trust me when I say I have dealt with every aspect of 'angry' people and even a few lawyers. I tell them, come to Texas and roll the dice.

The bigger issue is that the police force you create turns into a bigger monster than YOU can control. And what happens when it turns on you?

There were several teams who lobbied Viper to get rid of me and TS because we were too competitive, or bad for the sport, or 'cheaters' or gray area players. And now several of those teams are being held to the same stick that they used on me and my team and they don't like it. Me personally, I know people are fickle and scenario even more so.

So the real truth is that I like and respect both Delta and Team On Target, and that was friendly advice as someone who has been labeled 'THE BOOGEYMAN OF SCENARIO PAINTBALL'.

Shadawg,Listen man I'm an asshole on all forums so if it is at the Nation or whatever I will be the same as I like them all. Hell I have been banned from most of them. Also been too both those fields in the past in PA. Also what is that one in the Poconos called played the dreaded scenario there as well (You know the large one). Never been to the one you suggested in NY and Virginia. Played some great games in Boston. I will hit you up and see what is there now.

TB, For the love of god I think hell is going to freeze over (Respect, Friendly Advice) all in the same sentence? Are you going soft? You know Team On Target respects you and Thunderstruck as well as respect your thoughts as well. We also respect Delta as well and will sling paint with you guys any day.

I will tell a little story about the first time I met Hawk and TB. It was at Blanding (Viper Game)and I had just moved to Florida and got back into scenarios after being burned out after 5 years of playing Scenarios and Tourney's in the North. It was my second game at Blanding and I was not sure how are side stacked up. Much like LL3 I may say. Hawk was the General and goes over the field game plan and the damn thing was color coded into sections. I speak with TB for 5 minutes at a meeting and he says he wants to put his boot on there throat and not let off. I knew from that moment on I picked the right side and these were players I wanted to be around.

Oh some people wish I was going soft, the truth is more that (shudder) your two teams are more alike than not, and well I think that if you took some time and stepped back from the other people (who aren't full time scenario players) on both sides of the forum issues and other issues, well you would see you really want the same thing. A challenging game and if one side gets the advantage that the other side keep fighting to get back on top.

As for the rest, well, as someone banned at some events just for being me and having had no judge punches in 5 years, yet the community has an image of me. I just don't want to see teams that I respect doing the same thing to each other.

Wow, that's a lot of reading!

I'm pretty oblivious to most issues on the field during games other than shooting the guys in front of me or around me and scoring some points on missions. All the above stuff is just...pointless. I enjoyed the game, but myself and the rest of the team will probably not be returning to any LL in the future, it just didn't "do it for us".

I just have a couple of small points to make.

1) The point about leaving the field after elimination as quickly and directly as possibly is wrong. I tried to do that on a couple of occasions and was stopped by refs and threatened to get "punched" if I didn't exit at the entry points. I wasn't happy about that because I'm old and fat and just wanted to get out, LOL.

2)Shadawg-I really appreciate the "shout out" for Outdoor Adventures! We are hoping to see you guys (and everyone else for that matter)at one of our games soon. To clarify however, the fields are all located in Maryland (Rosedale, Pasadena, and Chesapeake City). I don't want you guys to get lost!

Anyway, the peacemaker in me likes where this discussion has gone.

We are looking at the Fulda Gap game in November (I think), and possibly Waynes World in December. Hope to see any of you at the games and feel free to look us up!

Namaste

TB, you are correct and yes our teams are alot alike and we are fighting for the same cause. That is why I fight in here and not all over the web. Only the hardcore know about this site.

We also will be attending Fulda Gap this year and have half the team going to LCP and the other at Waynes.

We are also looking at in January heading to Alabama MOUT.

Comfymumfy

OA is on our list of to do's for the 2011 season
CC is 90 min from home base.


I was thinking splatt brothers in VA.

Fulda Gap is also on the to do list, we hear nothing but good things.
We would be there this year, but we are running our own event at EMR that weekend.

Tommy, just for clarification on the clarification. Is your fake DMW, being dead and walking for intel, or is it just doing a DMW.
It has been explained numerous times, on many forums, that properly done a DMW is legal.

Just to respond to this sheilds dealy-o:

1. Sheilds is an honest player. He plays with a hot attitude that has even pissed me off once or twice, but he's an honest player

2. I didn't see any of the shit being talked about.

3. I've taken a longer walk to get behind the others teams line to get out before. We all know there are good reasons for it like,
a) Maybe I can bum a cig off of someone
b) Jesus christ it's so fucking hot, ooooh shade!
c) I don't want to be over here for when they breach the shit outta my line
d) I'm closer to the bus stop than the compound
e) Hey there's that guy who got all pissy last time I was walking out, I'm so walking right up next to him this time just to see if his yelling will reach all new octaves! Haw haw I'm such a scumbag

Unless someone is literally going out of there way to go right up to your CP area and walking around inside it or something I say there's no reason to get super bent out of shape about it.




"The bigger issue is that the police force you create turns into a bigger monster than YOU can control. And what happens when it turns on you?" (TB)

Exactly TB. It wasn't too long ago people where seriously considering a organized oversight of scenario paintball. something like the NPPL, except for scenario.

I was strongly against it then because of what TB is saying there. It got to the point where there was even some sort of secret committee on the NE, that for all I know still operates, that was in control of a couple of feilds. Luckily the people seriously behind that sorta thing either burned out, realized not enugh money was in it, or that it was such a silly idea it wouldn't work. Small business owners are quite notorious for not wanting to hand over the reigns in any serious way to other people.

The point TB brings up is the scariest part of that idea. What happens when we go after people for who they are or what they say instead of what they do? What happens when they go after you just because they don't understand your success, so you must be cheating? It's happened to me to a far lesser extent than it has TB, but I can tell you it really fucking sucks.

Looking at paticulars from LL3 this year does nothing in regards to pulling away something with meaning in regards to this. Sure people cheated in small ways. shit I had some "respected" peoples roll on me after I tagged the shit out of their back, in front of a ref. Shit lets even say, hypothetically for the sake of argument, that Sheilds was the biggest cheater ever this year and he and his team got banned or something. Go ahead, just do it.

What grandious change occurred bar maybe a NAACP lawsuit? None? k.

Now that we're past that whole shindig look at the bigger picture. Viper made what was a request "please hand in the other teams card" into a rule. At what point did that happen? Not before the game.

As someone who was fucking there when sheilds handed in a card for the other side, without ever using it, to Viper because he said we had to; it happened mid game. Why? That's the big question that I personally think Viper is trying to avoid with this whole BS "it's always been the rule you all cheated!"

Anyone who's seriously played Viper games knows that's BS, that's why I didn't even comment on it TB. It's that level of bullshit. Listening to the debate on that is akin to the Chenny shooting his friend incident; if you've ever quail hunted you know that dude fucked up when he joined the formation unannounced whereas if you never have before your stupidly going "HE WAS WEARING TEH ORANGE!!!"

I digress, the intresting question I think we're missing in a big way for most of this thread, the one I get a feeling Viper doesn't want us to ask, the one techPB/Mike is starting up shit loads of drama so it doesn't get asked, is why. Why, after so many games where this sort of thing has been squaked about before, did this happen suddenly?

My feeling is pretty clear on the matter and is rather akin to TB's. It was because techpb brought the numbers, bought the paint (shitloads more than our side from my shitty math), and albeit unrelated to the point I'm making brought the competition. They owned a majority of the feild a majority of the game. They had mission teams running mission and for the most part had a damn good line. Yet the game was close as shit, final battle close.

So the question I posed early just pops up again. What happens when an organization goes after you because of your success, because they don't get it? Even the most elite fucking spy in the world couldn't have swayed the points seriously this last LL because of how the missions where set up, from my limited knowledge at least. You needed multiple people for a majority of them. We got em done by using helos and exploiting the huge holes in some places.

Must have been cheating though. I'll bet CP and crew really believe it too. I've played with Cocker Punk numerous times and he's not one to act the way he is/was unless he has damn good reason. So that's what you have, a committee coming after ESP or who the fuck ever because they don't get the spread.

The last National fucking Producer just outlawed any sort of spying not under his control. Fuck the bullshit "you have all always cheated!"/"It was cheating this game!" bit, anyone who's played more than a few Viper games knows immediately, without question, due to how the 'rule' was worded that's bulshit. The important part, the 'this ought to be fucking scary for the scenario community part' is why that rule got changed and ESP got thrown under the bus.

If it was PBN I'd be saying the same shit. If it was, oh I dunno, lets say a congregation of NE teams led by a member of fictional team Alpha Ambush, I'd be saying the same shit. An organized group of players just strong armed the shit out of a National Producer, to the point he's changed a rule ex post facto.

The question derived from all this I find the most interesting is what if ESP didn't have Joe Staybeck? What if it was, I dunno, lets say Team on Target because they're here? Honestly now, if TechPB was after your ass to the point this serious of a rule change occured?

You'd get the boot.

You talk of making committees and shit. They already exist, in the form of these gargantuan super teams that equate to little more than unionized paintball players. I'm fine with producers bending to them, shit I would, but to do it to this point is fucking scary.

It's a good thing staybeck "gloated" about it on stage or whatever. His team can take the heat.

I was not at the game due to other major involvement with our Sponcer Eclipse we could not attend.

From what I see and know how delta plays, our team would state the DELTA does cheat countless times just to make a name popular. Every game we attend this has been the case.

We as a team hope that this incident puts them off the high horse they ride.

LOL, Dave you must be getting high off your own supply.
You just violated the first of the ten crack commandments.

Put down the pipe, and slowly back away.
Does crash know you are off your meds again?

Really, this is pretty low, seeing as how we have only played 2 games with you in 2 years, one of them your teammate was the general, and he was personally thanking us for all the help, not to mention the awards.

Freak, are you out of your fucking mind??? The first and ONLY game we played with you guys this year, DPT DOMINATED while the general was upset with his 13th players, oh, and that General was Crash.... Not to mention me and Waldo won MVP and DPT got honorable mention from him..... I sure hope crash visits this page....


------

Taz, send me a PM on the Nation with your # and I'll give you a buzz......

***I just want to verify that the above comment from user "13thFreak" is NOT me and is NOT representing the 13th Legionnaires.
***
That is someone obviously trying to start trouble.
99.9% of the time I use correct spelling and try to form proper sentences. And I would have used a capital D in the first use of the word "Delta".
Also it's not Eclipse, it's Planet Eclipse.

If there are other posts on this site under a similar name appearing to me, it is fake. I don't post on this site. I don't mean any offense by that either.

Moderator, If you could remove both of the posts that would be greatly appreciated.

Dave, thank you for clearing that up.

I'm leaving it up to TB to delete it since I don't really know who's who. The IPs are fairly close to each other geographically, and the rest of the post info matches. Haven't read enough from Dave to know if he can or can't spell.

I am the actual 13thFreak from PBN and I have emailed with both Shadawg and TB. Shadawg received correspondence through my PBN account and he knows that to be verified and true.
Thanks for the quick responses on the matter from TB and Indy.
Sorry for the whole thing from whomever it was that tried to be slick.

To some up all of these 200 posts and replies.

I guess when are holding onto the last person/team/group that is bringing numbers to your event you will do everything you can to please them and keep them coming back for many years to come. I wish when we were first starting out that Viper would have took the time to sit down with us and tell us all the little hints and tricks, and do's and dont's. But nope we had to figure it out the hard way like most teams today do, without any special treatment. Oh well I guess that is how he rolls. Thanks Viper for the increase in numbers at my events this year, I will be sure to treat them the right way and not dick them over like every other team who tried to help you in the past.

oh snap payroll :)

Honestly I don't get it. This is a huge bummer man. I know a bunch of you saw it coming, I just honestly didn't believe it one bit till now.

It's a bummer. At least the nonpaintball side of my life is starting to go right in an awesome way. Otherwise this would be pretty friggen rough.

Hit that one on the head Payroll.

Well the dead horse has already been beaten into whatever pureeed horses are used for.. Dog food maybe, but one more thing.

While I have respect for the real legends that were mentioned and noted at the opening shindig, that took a crapload of time.. Maybe just maybe since there was and it was known that a large amount of the player base was new to viper games that one would have actually went over the rules instead!

And mixing "pro" teams with the heart of the sport without them even reading the rules giveme a dam break! Prime example Nicky Cuba inserting onto the field at the wrong place and attempting to light up Chitown in the back.. Classic paid professional for you right there! /end joke