The Wild World of TB!

I noticed it right away, they did not start where they were supposed to, at all. As per the Viper rule book:

Game Start: When the game begins your commander will already know what the first missions for each segment are. Be sure that you at your base and ready to go when each segment begins! For the first thirty minutes of each segment players who have not yet been in play may enter directly to their base. Once you are hit you must wait for the next insertion window to open.

That's a bit far from their starting spawn, in addition, both sides had the option of starting at their field hospital. The video shows that they did not start from that point either, nor was it within the 50' radius of the base.

The video clearly explains how the other side(The Man) was able to get so far so fast, they had a shorter run at game on.

Good find TB.

Haven't played CPX, but I can kinda-sorta read a map. Aren't you supposed to start from your own base, and not an objective near it?

Tsk tsk tsk..... And to think, this was thought about, but never really brought up.....

Men who live in glass houses should not throw stones, and should change in the basement.......

My understanding was that from the fifty of the field when measured where we started was the same exact distance from where the other base was located. Also when the Generals did the "draft" who ever picked first got to choose there side and the base for red was decided at that time to be near the 26 on the map. Also from the video you see the refs around who brought us to this location and verified before game on this location.

Never played at CPX either, but I can read a fucking map, and I know that Viper's rules (at least they used to, who knows these days) state you must start at the base (50'rule).

Having commanded, I can get how the General could have been so involved with getting everything off the ground at the initial banger, that he just whiffed on making sure his players were where they legally should have been at the break, however, he should have delegated down to his XO and field commanders the pre-game responsibilities (i.e. making sure players are on field, making sure players are taped, making sure players taped are actually YOUR players, making sure your players are starting from where they are supposed to start) so that he could concentrate on getting the initial missions off and running smoothly.

What I don't really understand is why the refs weren't enforcing this rule at the time. I mean surely the base ref noticed that there must have been this large mass of people starting well outside of the prescribed point.

Has anyone really got what I am saying yet? It is much more than what is on the video...... :)

Pretty sad how they where only a little bit past the 50 at game on with that sorta lead. 5:18 they start 'setting up,' 6:41 they see our side for the first time. Thats the side we sent the runners on too. Sure the camera dude is a little ways back from the 50 but that's ridiculous. point 26 my ass.

It's too bad there weren't any home teams on that side to help enforce the rules :(

Whatever, as I said in the last thread these the specifics such as this one arn't half as important as the big rule change that happened. I'd find it hard to believe that this wasn't known about before the video was posted. It's happened pretty consistently at that field. I wouldn't be at all surprised if our side did that the second day when I wasn't there.

It's one of the top ten reasons LL is just a "for fun game."

one side has 20 points in it's territory and one has about 8 (9 being in the middle sorta)? That's all I can guess from the map.

Try again and 10-shot what the hell are you counting as the 50? LOL.

Having been a part of that charge, I can say that there were a few refs who were watching us get ready in that area and never said anything about us being outside our designated starting point. I had never played CPX before and I did not know that that point wasn't our base at the start of the game. I didn't realize our base was a lot farther back until I had to reinsert and tag up at the base. I don't understand why the refs didn't push us back to the base when we were standing there for the ten minutes before that starting shot.

fifty is a little bit behind 9 twoards 12. so about where the speedball field splits. So the green hut thing would be a little ways back from the 50. Not a lot, just a smidge. Unless I'm wrong, which I might be, because bar the first one I've never cared too much about LL games.

All I see though is a start from about where 27 is. The suspense is killing me if your seeing more.

It's a rule that is not written, but known by all that played this scenerio.

I know we started inside the treeline between the base and the hospital, I sought the shade. The ref I asked about why we were on the road told me that there were to many players to get around the CP. It seemed like they were positive that's the spot we were supposed to be in.

I'm packing for Pump Pandemonium as I type, what am I missing, lol?

Nads,

You may not have played there before, but the people and teams that have played there should of known better.

10 Shot, on Sunday we all walked back to the hospital to insert everytime, and while we sat there waiting for the insertion window to open, we baked in the sun. Did everyone on our side do that? I am sure some said "fuck it" and just went into play, however at game on, everyone was either at the base or at the hospital.

Here's how the start of the game went for the Blues Brothers side:

Myself and Zippy from ESP were the first two to make contact with the Red side. I was in the pallet field, Zippy broke off down into the woods. For the Midwest guys who know Zippy and myself...there's not a whole lot of guys who can run faster and longer than us. I'm not saying no one out there was faster and longer than I, But I gurantee that no one, or that many, were THAT much faster and longer than I am.

I knew we would get beat to the "50" due to the distance from starting locations to the "50" (of footage only, not objectives). A few minutes on Google Earth and its easily figured that Red had about a 300' advantage. No complaining about that, we got to pick first in the draft. But then you have to take into consideration the extra head start given and its easy to see why Zippy and myself were beat so badly to the "50".

I made it to just before the pallet field and snuck into the back of it and was quite alone for several minutes. Mike's first shots might have been at me actually and the "contact" in the woods around 8:30 was probably Zippy.

The most disappointing part about this was indeed that the refs didn't catch the incorrect starting location. But the generals knew where Viper said we could start. His exact words spoken to us were "You have to start at the base, but if you happen to be passing by the dead box at 12:00:01..." And the rules were changed to Hot Insertions all weekend long so there was never a need to get within 50'of the base after inserting.

So, both generals knew and they word on that ruling, I'm sure was passed along to Field Commanders and other "need to know" people on Red's side, just as we passed the word along to ours.

And where were those rules posted?

I mean, I just gave you the printed rules from the promoter.

And now there is video footage that shows different.

And people have reasons, but based on the black and white people before, let's look shall we?

Now do people see what I am getting at?

It is much much more than a simple these guys didn't follow the written rules.

I don't have to spell it out for you guys do I?

And if I am not mistaken, isn't that Honu on the road pumping people up?

The modification to the rules regarding starting location and constant hot insertions was not negotiated until Friday night or Saturday morning. I know, because we pushed for both of those to try and help even the distance to the "50" out.

Yes, that is Honu out there.

So who had the good find?

No wonder they beat us to the main objectives, it also doesn't help that they moved our CP farther back then from last year.... the main objectives were in the middle of the field while our cp was in the middle of fucking no where...

Yes, that is me on the road pumping people up. Yes, this is where we started from for both the day and night game. Most important this is where I told people to start from. As 10 shot commented he wished a home team had been on the Red side to straighten people out, we were. I have been on the Hellions ( CPX home team ) for 3 years now and every full field game i've been to at CPX the team that starts on the Fort Courage starts right where we were. We had refs from CPX and DL refs from Canada with us and they never once said a thing about it. The clearing where we started is the closest open area that a large group of players can fit that is not behind the base. The Yellow team also started from the closest open area from the Moon shine shack. It just happened to be that their deadbox was closer to that opening. At the first LL game TB your side started from the FC side , where did the players group up on that side before game on? I was on the other side for that one. I also beileve that was just a one day game. LL2 the Hellions and WOW were together at FC on the first day and we started from the same spot on the video. LL3 as I said based on past games I told my key players to bring their people to that spot to start. If I was wrong then it's on me , as this is what I told them to do. However as the game has been over for close to 2 months now there is little we can do to change the outcome. The people who know me , know I would never knownly cheat. I read the rules for LL3 and this is where I told my team to stage. If I was wrong , then my bad.

If the point your makeing with this thread is somethings that may appear black and white in the rules are treated as more grey rules , good point. If not free idea for next thread.LOL

Forgot to add this so people know for sure where we started.

Looking at the map at the top of thread we were even with # 26 on the east ( right side) of the road. We were speard out between the bus turn around and maybe 25-30 feet from the north treeline.

I talked to Honu about where they started from. He told me that that is where they normally started from when they played there. It was an honest mistake.

BUT for those who have been SOOOOOOO concerned about following the "written" rules, and that there is NO excuse. Well....... I guess by their own admission..... they were cheating.... I'm just saying :0)

Food for thought.

Does it matter what the refs say, or does it matter what the rules themselves say?

Just throw that out there, since most refs seem to have no clue what's going on and are useless for anything but a paint check.

"just someone" use a real email addy, or it gets deleted.

Looks like Honu and T are getting it.

And yes I admit that other games including Shatnerball had people starting there, and why you guys got to start there I don't know (I wasn't there).

But the rules say one thing and the promoter, commander and refs evidently felt that something else had to be done. Or it was done in full sight of the refs and allowed by one group of people counter to what the written rules say.

Whether this advantage led to the pushing of the poo is yet another discussion I would be glad to have since I have played that field a lot. I just need to know where the other side started during Sat day and night and then again where each side started on Sun.

Another point was the people screaming that with Video they can prove anything, and put people on a 'Wall of Shame' with video proof. As I have said, video may not be what you think it shows, regardless of what you have written down, printed and read before the game. None of those rules are black and white and I have seen any of them violated by other cards, refs, and the game director. I have seen field owners hit the field and move players back to an imaginary line at the 50 and not let one side go beyond it in the talks of making it a 'fair game'.

Another thing I am wondering is where are the black and white guys who were on the previous thread? Are they that mad at me?

Just a note about the "refs"

The ONLY refs that know anything and are worth the price of playing is Cliffs group.... All the other "local" refs didn't know shit! And for that matter, I personally asked one of the black and white refs about the rules and he stated that they didn't even have a briefing, he also went on to say, they only have one scenario a year, so it's not his JOB to know all the rules..... This is thee most ridiculous issue that we face in paintball today, the damn REFS not knowing the damn rules..... I mean, if they aren't going to do they're job, then they should NOT get paid.... We all understand that they need that paint for speedball, so a job is a job, and they need to start being held ACCOUNTABLE

It sucks being associated with the term "cheater", but not knowing any better isn't an excuse for it. This game means little more to us than a "checkmark" on our "to do list". This is the most crap I've heard post game in my scenario life, and it's coming from both sides.

Well, I guess I'll go meet up with my team and head off to EMR to play paintball this weekend, lol!

I will say this. This was the first time I've ever played with Honu and most of the other guys on "The Man". Honu seems like a stand up guy and I would happily play with/for him again, anytime. If he says he thought that was the place to start then that is what I believe.

Honu is a dear friend of WOW as well. We have no bad feelings towards him, he knows that.

Honu's a good guy, nothing against him...... Looking forward to linking up with them at some away games....

And my point again is not to accuse Honu of anything.

The point to all of this, is that if this was assigned by the refs and game director it was done in complete violation of the written rule. And that there were a ton of people all over the internet crucifying anyone and everyone who disagreed with a written rule that was in contention in the very same document. This there was no contention, the statement was clear and 300 feet is no where near the base, as for a clearing to start from, where did the other side start?

If I wanted to be as dickish as most of the TechPB Moderators were about their video evidence of cheating I could put it up frame by frame with time stamps. But as the thread was locked up very quickly on tech pb and now people want to scream move along, the game is over.

Where were the calls for that when the shoe was on the other foot?

People want community? They might want to look that word up and what it means. People want to be the police force for the game? Then they might want to check with the people who made/make the calls.

Funny thing is, all you guys are fighting each other and obviously Viper knew about the advantage that one side got and has yet to say anything. And trust me, starting where they started is a HUGE advanatage for that field layout.

See, I leave the man alone and he even fucks this up now. And he is the second promoter with all this super knowledge, even a moron should have seen this field layout was an abortion waiting to happen.

Just a quick statement, with the people screaming that the ABT is why their side got beat so badly on Sunday, the truth is the field was lopsided, you just got a taste on Sunday what one side got all day and night sat.

There is no doubt in my mind that Honu would not do this intentionally.

There has definately been a lot of shit being said after this game. I just figure if one side is going to insist on labeling someone as a cheater then maybe they should look in the mirror. TechPB has closed threads on their site but continue to drag people through the mud on other sites, such as specops. I just think we need to level the field.

There is no doubt a ton of cheating happened at this game. I would say mostly due to ignorance but that doesn't make it right.

I could make a laundry list of all the cheating but what is the point. It is always going to happen at games of this size where you have one time a year scenario players. And none of this is directed at anyone in particular.

On another note I find it funny that the people at TechPB think that I am TB making the post over there. I guess we do have the same initials. LOL.

And someone on TechPB wanted to know where the 50' rule is, well it used to be in the rules but it seems it was edited as well.

However in this instance, the people who have played Viper games knew that the rule has always been 50'.

Guess it is ok that previous game knowledge is used when it benefits the side who wants to use it right?

And them thinking you and I are the same person Russ, is downright silly. I sent both the mod who locked it and the dude who said it.

And neither have responded to me.

"This is the most crap I've heard post game in my scenario life, and it's coming from both sides."

Comfy, if this is the most crap you've heard post scenario game ever, then you haven't played too many Viper games.

LOL, yeah it's was only our 4th Viper game.

I usual steer clear of the political side of the scenario world. I dislike the finger pointing and whining.

We thought the game seemed to be "loose" as far as rules were concerned and it certainly was laid back.

I think I'm surprised that 2 months after a game is over there is still crap being brought up. The Predator tank, Exiting the field, DMW vs Fake DMW, ABT, 50' rule, etc.. I'm also surprised that TechPB locks a thread so quickly, WTF. I also wonder why there hasn't been a response from Viper and maybe even CPX.

Cliff's refs rock and CPX refs were clueless and should donate their wages to the CPX parking fund.

Comfy, LMAO..... I think those refs should donate to the parking fund as well, ahhahahahahahhahaha.....

It's funny that you guys should mention how TechPB closes treads, thats what you should expect in the ghetto.... It's the whole, look at this but not at me mentality..... The people in real ghetto's do this type of shit all the time, point out the bad in others but never look inward..... Mike of TechPB = King of the ghetto, and they're "lynch mob" are just a bunch of fan boys hanging from the kings sack hoping to get his favor at someo point or another......

I've been keeping out of all the post game stuff that's been going on. I respect Honu and do not want to take away from his win. But this is really not good. The rules say you start at 50 feet from base or from the hospital if you don't get to the base in time. That is where we started to answer your question TB.

I think we can all agree Vipers rulebook needs some work.

I know honu, it was a pithy jab because I am an asshole like that :)

I don't blame you, that shits been brought to the attention of Paul/viper for 3 years fucking running. No player, general or not, should be forced into the position of telling that many people their cheating.

What TB is trying to get across I think, and what I was most deffeintly trying to get people to think about this thread and last, is careful who you associate with. You got a group acting like total asshats, Vipers apparently cool with it, how about you?

The game itself doesn't count for shit now, it's been over for 2 months. The reactions of the players and promoter do. This isn't politics or sponser v. Sponser or whatever people are trying to schlep it off as.

It's 2 months post game, lets move past questions about the specifics. The question of relavance is not "did honu cheat/fuck up?" It's a question of do we want this sort of fucking enviroment? To be blunt, the one Mike and friends are trying so hard to create?

Do we want a group trying to hurt teams because they think it's right? Trying to the point where they get a producer to change the rule after the fact? Sure I hold viper accountable for not standing up to them, but the true villan he is not.

The true villany in this situation is the apparent willingness of some people to sacrifice loyalty and history to pacify the whining and bitching of people who get out maneuvered or out prepared or overall out-played.

There will always be an endless supply of PAB's. What some people don't seem to realize is there won't always be an endless supply of enough teams/players experienced enough to provide good command and mission teams if you keep pissing on them in an attempt to cater to those who can't take a good beating every now and then with a little grace.
Some people just can't seem to grasp the concept that a scenario game isn't just about going out and shooting someone, but there is thought, strategy, the ability to think with fluidity, and being able to take that thought process outside the box that the Vanilla peddlers would have you reside in.
What happened to the days when someone got outplayed, they said "You got me this time, but I'll be damned if it'll be that easy to get me next time. Good job"

Cayjunn, I'd like to add something to that.

A great team has more than clever players, good strategy, and quick adaptations.

Discipline is damn near everything. The team with the most is usually going to win the game, often by a landslide. That governs everything about the game, and goes far beyond the trigger. It means standing there on security for 3 hours, bored out of your skull, and remembering to read every single card that goes by and cross-check badges. It means being at your base, ready to play right that second, 15 minutes before the game starts. It means skipping alcohol on Friday night, eating and hydrating properly so you can play the entire game and not need to stand down at 11pm. It means going as fast as you can during a hot insertion no matter how far down on points you are. It's a short list of players that can do that, let alone teams.

And the sad sad truth is that Ratsnake is the real VILLIAN. He is the one touting himself as this super fucking promoter to everyone with a stellar record and ethics above reproach.

Let me tell you that man is a joke, one of the biggest in the sport, and he has always had people help him.

Want to know when he has issues like this? When he doesn't have someone with the intelligence, foresight and team knowledge enough to warn him of it.

I will post a new post here in a few days taking the video apart and giving some an opinion of why LL3 went the way it did and why LL4 will be an even bigger joke than this one.

Cayjunn: I personally just see that as weakness myself. Wrong, absolutly; but it falls a bit short of villany. Trying to run out/hurt the reputations of teams just to make a name for yourself is. I find it amazingly hard to believe techpb gives a fuck about the honesty of play at viper games or living legends.

"No mode is allowed that yields more than two shots from the first two trigger cycles. All electronic markers must be capped at 13 balls per second IN ALL MODES INCLUDING SEMI-AUTO MODE."

Even better... man behind the camera is shooting full auto. Now tell me you're walking that trigger!! Mike were YOU cheating??

Since the "No mode is allowed that yields more than two shots from the first two trigger cycles" rule was OMITTED from the LL3 rules, one can argue full auto was allowed. Viper scenario veterans are accustomed to no full auto. Just another example of leaving the rules wide open....

Sorry everyone for not chiming in earlier as I have been on the road traveling to New Jersey and finally am taking a break from it.

I think it is safe to say we all know the only refs worthy of anything is Cliff's from Canada, they are always golden for games. Personally for me refs usually make or break a game just like any sport. We have bad ones and good ones. We need more good ones in this sport or we are not going to get any better. I am tired of going to games and refs not making a call either good or bad and being swayed by the player. The refs need to know the rules, make a call and that is it we play on.

On another note if we are going black and white and since I did read the rules "Yes" I was wrong in assuming we did the right thing starting where we did. Also Honu was a terrific general and I would go to battle for him anytime.

Shields, I will PM you on the Nation tommorrow with my number when I get settled in.

10-Shot, we'll have to just disagree on this. I see villany in the lack of loyalty, the unwillingness to have the balls to stand up for those who got you where you are, and being quick to throw longtime supporters under the bus all in the name of "clarification". You see it as weakness. I think it's a matter of semantics.
I do agree, however that in the ever changing world of scenario paintball, there are always people more interested in making a name for themselves than the furthering of honest play.
However the term "fair play" tends to be subjective depending on if you're asking the winner or the loser. Or, as the case may be, the winner who didn't get the crushing victory they were hoping for. I've seen it both ways.

The mode I was using in this video was 10bps w/ 3 shot burst. If you listen to the video at 23:19, you can distinctly hear the 3 shot bursts.

As far as the game breakout, we went where the refs told us to go. We got off the bus, and the refs told us to go to the clearing. I did ask a couple of refs how come we didn't spawn closer to the base or hospital, and the answer I was given was in reference to safety. Something about "too many people running through the trails risk someone tripping and getting trampled."

We were surrounded by refs, there was quite a few of them that were at the spawn with us. This is where the told us to go. And to be honest, at this point in the video, I had no clue where the hospital was, or even where the base was. I still have no clue where our base was, and I didn't know where our hospital was until my second insertion when I saw people walking from it when I got off the bus.

Was it cheating? Sure why not. I should have admitted to it on stage when I got the MVP award

"No mode is allowed that yields more than two shots from the first two trigger cycles."

"Players may only enter the game from their own hospital"

So, which takes precedence, the rules or the refs?

If a ref tells you to break the rules, is that okay?

I still would like to know why if the starting point was a safety issue we had to start at the hospital/base on Sunday when we switched sides and not at the opening?

Because it wasn't a safety issue, and like all things, the refs didn't change it or made their own on field judgement or Viper told them to do it.

And then by Sunday, the other side was so butt hurt, that they had to hold you all to the higher standrad.